BRAND SECRETS AND STRATEGIES

PODCAST #94

Hello and thank you for joining us today. This is the Brand Secrets and Strategies Podcast #94

Welcome to the Brand Secrets and Strategies podcast where the focus is on empowering brands and raising the bar.

I’m your host Dan Lohman. This weekly show is dedicated to getting your brand on the shelf and keeping it there.

Get ready to learn actionable insights and strategic solutions to grow your brand and save you valuable time and money.

LETS ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES AND GET STARTED!

Dan: Welcome. Before I begin, I want to remind you that there's a free download at the end of most every episode. I always try to include one easy-to-download, quick-to-digest strategy that you can instantly adopt and make your own, one that you can use to grow sustainable sales and compete more effectively. Remember, the goal here is to get your product on more retailer shelves and into the hands of more shoppers.

I love inspirational stories, inspirational stories about iconic brands and what the entrepreneur had to do to build the brand up. What's interesting is they all have a similar theme. They learn what they should and they shouldn't do, but yet they persevere. I love sharing their stories about the strategies that they identified, the strategies that they came upon that worked best for them, the strategies that helped them build their brand to where it is today.

While a lot of brands look at the package and think that they're an overnight success, few brands really are, and what's great about this is that these stories help inspire future generations of entrepreneurs.

Let's face it, building a brand is difficult. It's hard work. It takes a lot of effort, and you need to surround yourself with the right people. Rarely ever does everything go right the first time, the second time, the third time, and so on. These stories help illustrate what brands need to be thinking about, what they need to do so they can help stand out on a crowded shelf.

Today's story is about a disruptive brand that's changing the way we think about artisan cheese. Non-dairy, vegan cheese has changed a lot. I remember several years ago, when the packaging actually tasted better than the product inside. That's not true today. Today, there are amazing products with a great mouth-feel, robust flavors that smell fantastic.

Today's story is about the brand that's leading this charge. Here's Miyoko from Miyoko's Kitchen. Miyoko, thank you for coming on today. Before we get started, I'd like to learn a little bit more about yourself and your journey to Miyoko's Kitchen.

Miyoko: Sure. Thanks for having me on. I'm really happy to be here. Well, we are a four-year-old company, and I've been sort of in and out of the food space for a lot of time, since the 1980s. I've also written books, so I've been in food for a long time, and I've written a book called Artisan Vegan Cheese, which became a cult classic. It was really my old competitor buddy, Seth Tibbott of Tofurky who encouraged me to go into business making vegan cheese. I used to have a company back in the nineties called Now and Zen where we made meat substitutes, and I had a product that was a competitor to Tofurky. It was called the UnTurkey. But it was really Seth Tibbott who said, "Your cheese is really great, you should go into business. I'll be your first investor." I forever thank him for those words of encouragement.

Dan: Okay, well what did you do before that? I mean, how did you get into this? You wrote a cookbook, I looked at your Linkedin profile, and the bio you sent me. Thank you for doing that. And you've got more than just one cookbook. Talk about your restaurant days and how those experiences helped get you to the point where you decided to take the plunge and invest your time and your energy into building this brand.

Miyoko: Well, I've been a small bit serial entrepreneur, let's put it that way for 30 years. From the very first time I started a little business in Tokyo, making pound cakes that were vegan. And it was really all this my own personal exploration as I transitioned from being a vegetarian to a vegan and trying to figure out how do I make food that I liked to eat, which was French and Italian, and rich, and wonderful, and luscious, and luxurious. And I wanted to be able to create and capture all those flavors, and then it hit me on the head. "Hey, I should package this. I should sell it. I should make it available for more than just me, but for others to enjoy." And so my first product was a pound cake, which was vegan and I baked them in this dusty little bakery that I rented in Tokyo. And I delivered them by backpack on a subway.

I had no more mode of transportation except for public transportation. And so I put 70 pounds worth of pound cakes and a backpack and I just delivered them by train. And it was just stepping stones, one business to another. I was determined to open a restaurant. So when I moved back to the United States, I wrote a cookbook and found some friends who wanted to do a restaurant with me. Friends and family made a small investment. I got a little restaurant in San Francisco that opened up in the early nineties. That was one of the first vegan restaurants doing upscale cuisine back then. You could get lentil burger, or you could get lentil loaf, but that was about all you could get at a Vegan restaurant. So I wanted to show the world that you could make really delicious, luscious food that was vegan. And that was my first advent into food performance, which is how I sorta think of restaurants.

So it was called Now and Zen and that morphed into a natural food business called Now and Zen, which I had for about eight years before I sold it in 2003. And that started because of that product that I had called the UnTurkey, which I was serving for Thanksgiving at the restaurant. And someone else in business, somebody who had one of these ... What are those? A shake, a high protein nutrient rich shake. Said to me, "Wow this is really, really great. You should go to the natural products expo and debut this UnTurkey." I didn't know what the natural products expo was, but I went. Lo and behold, that weekend we sold about 50,000 UnTurkeys. I'm sorry, $50,000 worth of UnTurkeys not 50,000. And I was officially in business. And this is back in the I don't know, mid nineties or so, and the world was really, really different. You could make things in your kitchen and sell them at Whole Foods.

It wasn't as stringent as it is today. You didn't have all these regulations regarding food safety, which are definitely a good thing, but back then, people could just wing it and all sorts of things happened. So I was able to launch this company overnight and start shipping product to stores around the country. And that's kind of how it started. It was my first adventure into the world of natural foods. And that and writing cookbooks, various cookbooks just led up to where I am right now.

Dan: Great story. So back up a little bit. The fact that you started in Tokyo delivering everything by backpack. How did you scale? How did have enough product to be able to deliver at the volume that you needed to make this thing work?

Miyoko: Oh, in a backpack? Well that business never scaled, that was just a small thing. Every time, I was taking three days a week and delivering three days a week and it was just a nightmare. I was just like, "Why did I ever get into this? Why didn't I go into fashion?" Those are the thoughts that were going on in my head. I don't like this schlep. I don't like these hot days in a bakery. But I had chosen that route, and I wanted to morph that into a different type of food business which was a restaurant, which was really, really what I wanted to do. I was working towards a vegan restaurant in Tokyo, but that never got off the ground there. I ended up doing that here in the states.

Dan: Makes sense. Actually I should have backed up and said, talk about vegan. What is the lifestyle? What does that mean? And the reason I asked that question is the old joke was that the packaging was more flavorful for natural products back when, than the products inside. And the fact that you've figured out a way to make or replicate products in a Vegan format that have the same robust flavor profiles, etc. So can you talk a little bit about vegan? What is it? And more importantly, how were you able, how are you inspired to be able to develop all these rich flavor profiles?

Miyoko: Oh well, vegan is in my mission since I transitioned to that over 30 years ago. And the mission of that of course is about animals and the planet, and all of that. But my personal mission within that bigger mission was really to show the world that delicious vegan food was possible. Because back in the eighties, delicious vegan food was not available. And you're absolutely right. The packaging was tastier. I remember going into a store in the US, probably late eighties, and seeing the first vegan cheese. I think it was, I'm not going to say the name of it. And I was so excited, and I bought some and I took it home. And I took a bite and I will not finish the story.

Dan: I get it.

Miyoko: You get it. That's what it was like. I don't even think people expected that it could taste good. It was something that you did. It was a sacrifice, and you did it for the greater good. You became a vegan because you were doing that to save the planet, to save your health, to save the animals and you were sacrificing your taste buds in order to do that. And that's the perception that most people had, which is why people didn't want to make that lifestyle choice because hey, the truth of the matter is we choose what we eat not with our heads but with our taste buds. I mean, that's really the way most people eat. It doesn't matter how much you understand how good something is for you. If you don't like it, you're not going to continue eating it. So that was definitely the case. And my mission was to change that perception. My mission has always been to change that perception because if you don't, people will not transition. Doesn't matter how wonderful the lifestyle is for all the other reasons. If it doesn't taste good, they're not going to come over.

Dan: Well said. Thank you for doing that by the way because okay, full disclosure, I have to be honest, I have to confess that I actually tried to transition years ago to try a vegan diet. And I could not get past the taste of some of the things are out there. This was in the early eighties. So, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, love plant based products. But to your point some of the stuff that I was able to find, it just was not ... I couldn't imagine that type of lifestyle. But what's great about it to your point is that there are so many great products out there that fit that need, fit that niche, and have those robust flavors that we've all come to like and love, etc. that we can find other places. So when you're talking about this, the cookbooks, how did that relate to this? How did your becoming an author, how did that spur that? Let me put it this way, how did that what I would call a sense of adventure, that curiosity in terms of being able to develop a recipe and write a book about it. How did that help you build this following, this understanding, and then leverage that to become Miyoko's Kitchen?

Miyoko: Well, I lived in Tokyo and that was at the time back in the eighties, a hotbed for Italian and French cuisine in a way that the Bay Area or America was not. Back in the eighties, Americans were still eating at fast food joints or American style, Italian restaurants with that just didn't replicate Italy at all. And so I don't think we had a very advanced culinary scene in the United States. But Japan was just way beyond. And within a four block radius of where I lived, there were probably half a dozen French restaurants. There were more Michelin restaurants in Tokyo then I think all of France or something like that. I can't remember, don't hold me to that. But it's pretty remarkable how much focus there is on refined flavors in Japan. And Japanese cuisine is highly refined.

So I had developed a taste for really refined, elegant, rich, unctuous dishes living in Japan. And when I went vegan it was like, "Okay, how am I going to do that with lentils?" And there was nothing available. There was no internet, there were no cookbooks. There was no online community, there were no other vegans around me. How was I going to figure this out? So I just plunged into it, and I wanted to be able to replicate all of those dishes in some way that was fabulous. I like challenges, I always have. So I put myself to this test where every Friday night I had a 10 course tasting menu at my house. I started inviting people and I would spend all day Friday cooking, coming up with these delicious little bites and treats and things trying to figure out what worked and what didn't work. What could I do with nuts, what could I do with seeds, what could I do with grains that was different, changing the form.

I started inviting people. First it was friends and then friends invited friends who invited people that were in food, who were chefs, or writers, or journalists, or in the natural food space in Japan that was burgeoning at the time. And this led to me finally figuring out how to make these recipes, which led to the writing of my first cookbook, which was published in 1990. Which was arguably one of the first two cookbooks that came out both the same year, that were this reflective of this upscale approach to a plant based cuisine. Which until then hadn't existed. So when I returned to the United States, I wanted to get a restaurant launched in Tokyo, but that never happened for a variety of reasons.

I came back to the United States and I thought, "Okay, I'm going to open a restaurant here." And initially, it was a little bakery. Actually, it was a little bakery at my house. I basically made cakes at my house and I literally drove them in the back of my Volvo Station wagon and delivered them to stores like Whole Foods, who at the time didn't ask where do you make your cakes? It was pretty interesting. It was a very, very different business back then. And you could just do crazy stuff like that that you would not be able to get away with today. and so eventually I opened a little restaurant in San Francisco, a little bistro called Now and Zen Vegan Bistro. And that was it. It was trying to get this type of upscale cuisine to everyday people so they could also appreciate how fantastic this food could be.

Dan: Fantastic. So you really led the curve om trying to get people to really think about this. Were there a lot of other people that you were running into and bumping into, especially in San Francisco, where they were also in that same mission? How did you build community around this?

Miyoko: Well, there wasn't much community around it. There was one other restaurant that opened right around the same time we did, which was Millennium, which has now become one of the premier vegan restaurants in the world actually. And in fact, I dined there last night with a business associate and it's a fantastic restaurant. And Eric Tucker is an amazingly talented chef who's just made quite a name for himself, so kudos to him. But there wasn't really a whole lot going on besides that. Otherwise it was just the kind of stuff that you mentioned before, the packaging tasting better. There was no internet, there was a vegetarian society in San Francisco. And it was where you didn't want to go, because sometimes they would have potlucks and the dishes were almost tasted like someone to take in a syringe and sucked the flavor out of the dishes.

I mean, it was like that. So yes, veganism had a really bad rap and I don't blame people for thinking that. Because most of the food was pretty bad back then. But the stuff that is available today was not available back then. The idea of making a vegan pancake back in the early nineties was revolutionary. I remember we served a brunch, and I figured out how to make vegan pancakes and vegan waffles and things like that. And people were like, "Oh my God, you can get Vegan pancakes. I can't believe this." This was considered revolutionary back then. Today it's just like yeah, of course. I was using cashew cream back in the 1980s and making all kinds of things out of cashews back then. And that was revolutionary.

Millennium was using it too, but today everybody uses that. Everyone uses nuts to make cheese and butter and milk and, and all sorts of things. But back then it was quite unique. It's really just exciting, where we've gone. We've taken these traditional foods that were eating in a particular manner for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. In the last 20, 30 years, we've completely revolutionized how we use them and we've transformed them into new foods. And this is a really exciting time that that creativity exists.

Dan: Absolutely. And to be a part of that, that's fantastic. So between the restaurant and where you're at today, what happened between there? Can you fill in that gap?

Miyoko: Sure. So I think I mentioned the guy that came and said, "You should take the UnTurkey to the Natural Products Expo." And I did. And back then, I went to the Natural Products Expo East. So this is obviously in September and it was in Baltimore. I really didn't understand what a trade show was. I didn't really understand what I was doing. But the takeaway was that I wrote $50,000 in orders that weekend. I went back to San Francisco to my little restaurant and I thought, "Okay great, now I gotta figure out how I'm going to make these turkeys and how I'm going to get them to the East Coast." And this guy who told me about the expo initially said, "Well you need to get them into a distributor and the one to get into is Cornucopia."

Cornucopia now is UNFI. But at the time it was Cornucopia. So back then we had fax machines, and I took all these turnover orders. I just started faxing them to Cornucopia. And the buyer, I got a phone call from Cornucopia and they just said, "Stop. We don't know who you are, but we don't care. Stop faxing orders." And I thought, "Oh God, okay." All right. And I said, "I'm sorry. I'm really sorry to bother you." I hung up, and then I just continued faxing more orders. A couple of days later I got a call from them and they said, "Okay, fine, one of our stores reached out to us. We'll buy your product for the season, but we never want to hear from you again." So that was the start of the business. We started cranking out UnTurkeys in our kitchen at the restaurant.

We somehow managed to get them to Cornucopia. This is basically September as you know, and you have to ship in early October to meet the Thanksgiving orders. So it all happened within a matter of weeks. Now this is unthinkable today when you submit a new product. You don't just like all of a sudden start shipping it in three weeks time. But that's what we did. It's pretty crazy. So basically the restaurant had this natural products manufacturing company as an adjunct. And then at the end of the season I realized, "Okay, now I have this natural products company also. But I have nothing else to sell the rest of the year. I only have this fourth quarter product." So then I had to figure out, I had to go back to my little lab and just create a few more products that we could sell the rest of the year.

So I created some more vegan meats. One was called the UnChicken and it was the breast of UnChicken, it had a skin. And then created the UnRibs, and then the UnStakeout, which was a wine mayor marinaded, [inaudible 00:20:58] steak. And that's kind of how we got into business. The business went pretty well. It was challenging back then. There was a lot of organic growth, certainly not the capital that in food today. And it was very hard to get investors. Today, there's a lot of investments going into the space. And I'm sure you're well aware of that. It's a fast growing industry and people want to get in on it, so there's tons of tons of money. But back then, all the the investors were putting money into .com, so it was definitely not going into food. And we got to a certain size when it just became a struggle.

We had this very fourth quarter intensive product, which meant we had to buy inventory in advance. We'd have cash constraints at certain times of the year. It was very hard to borrow. It was very hard to scale. I think it was about six years in, I sold the company. Not for millions and millions of dollars, but I really just sold it to get out of debt because I had borrowed money to keep the company going. And so I sold it to another company, and then they went out of business I think about four years later. So the products that I was making became unavailable about 2007, I think is when they went out of business.

Dan: Okay. Sorry to hear that. Well, back up. Was the distributor friendlier to you once you were able to produce different products?

Miyoko: Oh, they were great. I think we had a good relationship with Cornucopia. I was chief, what's that expression? Cook dishwasher. Cheap bottle, whatever the expression is. But anyway, I was the whole thing. I was sales marketing CEO, I had a bookkeeper, an office manager, and a production manager. And that was it. So I ran everything and so I was constantly in touch with the buyers and brokers, and they were great. At the time you were dealing with all the different branches. You were dealing with Mountain People, Cornucopia Tree of Life. Trying to remember some of the other divisions that covered some of the other areas. It was a very different scene.

It was easier to get your product in. It was usually just a conversation. Maybe you sent some samples, maybe you didn't get. The joke really is when I sold them the other three products, the other three skews, at the time that I sold it into Cornucopia, I only had two of them actually developed. I just relied on, I mean this is horrible of me to admit this, but I knew I'd be able to develop the third item. But I hadn't actually developed it. I was literally developing it as we made it to ship two weeks before we shipped. It was pretty crazy. That would not be possible today.

Dan: Well, it says a lot about you. I mean, the fact that you're creative and innovative and be able to do that. That's one of the things that makes natural natural so it can be nimble and fast and be able to react to things. Whereas a lot of the big brands, they have a real hard time with that. When I worked for Unilever, my boss made the analogy that it's really, really hard to turn an ocean liner even a few degrees or change its path on the ocean. They're that bulky and that slow, so-

Miyoko: [crosstalk 00:24:36] yes it's true.

Dan: It is, and that's what's great about the fact that you had that flexibility. So you got a really good education in what to do and what not to do, and how to make all this work. So when you sold the business, where did you go? What did you decide to do? What was next?

Miyoko: I actually just did a completely, I just changed my life at that point. I felt like I really didn't have what it took to be an entrepreneur. And so I went into an area of real estate. I had an opportunity, my husband's a lawyer and he suggested I do something called 1031 exchanges, which is about how to defer capital gains tax on the sale of investment property. And you go through someone called a qualified intermediary. So I educated myself on that and I set up a little business being a qualified intermediary during this big real estate boom in the 2000s. And I did very well doing that. I finally was making money, and it was kind of exciting. It's like wow, I can earn all this money. Because I hadn't earned any money doing Now and Zen.

But then I was one day as I got older and my kids were growing up, I just thought, "God, is this the rest of my life just doing something like this that has no meaning, no purpose, that's not really creating value?" Because I had done all the things I had done because I felt I was creating value to some degree. I was helping people. People would say, "Wow, I love your products. Thank you for making it for me. It makes it so much easier for me to be vegan that I can eat this product." And it was the hit of the Thanksgiving dinner or whatever. And so I always felt like, I wanted to show the world how delicious veganism could be. And now I wasn't doing that. Now I was just making money off of real estate, and it just didn't feel good.

So I just closed up shop one day, said I'm not this anymore. After I finished my last deal, said I'm not doing this anymore. And I went back to writing books. And I wrote Artisan Vegan Cheese, which was published in 2012. So basically throughout the 2000s, I had been working on developing vegan cheese because that was the hardest thing for me to give up. It was my bucket list. It was like before I die, at some point I'm going to develop credible vegan cheese. So I'd been working on and off and on, and I had amassed enough recipes that I approached my old publisher and I said, "Hey, I've been thinking of writing a book on vegan cheese. Are you guys interested in?" I was really surprised when they said yes. I had been out of the food space for a few years and I didn't think anyone would care or would listen to me when there were so many up and coming great chefs in the vegan space, because of the internet and so many bloggers. Just a lot of exciting stuff going on.

But they published the book, and it became a cult classic. Within a short amount of time I got back in touch with Seth Tibbott of Tofurky who had been my competitor when I had the UnTurkey, and he is the one who really encouraged me to start the company. He said, "Hey you need to do this. The world needs it and I'll invest." So I forever tip my hat to Seth Tibbott for those encouraging words.

Dan: That's great that he was able to do that. And you took that advice. I mean, part of what I was thinking in the back of my mind is you got tired of getting a good night's sleep and decided to jump back in the fray again.

Miyoko: Oh my God, that's exactly right, 'cause you certainly don't sleep when you run a business.

Dan: No you don't. A lot of people don't realize how much work, especially if you are everything, the cook, the chef, the chief I forget the term too.

Miyoko: Chief bottle washer.

Dan: Yeah, a lot of times I tell people I'm the night janitor just for kicks. But yeah, it takes a lot to do that. So you're writing more books, and by the way I think it's great that you were able to do this. It sounded like you questioned yourself a little bit, but the fact that you had the passion, he had the ability, and had the knowledge to be able to connect the dots and be able to develop the product. The underlying story that I'm hearing Miyoko's is you solved a problem. You wanted to solve a problem based upon filling your needs first, which is what's so important because that gave you your reason, your purpose. And then to be able to leverage that and turn it into a product that you could share with the world and thank you for doing them. And then more importantly, turning it into a business. And then really more importantly, is being able to validate that and prove that this could be done. So again, hats off to you. I mean you've got a great, very authentic story.

So you decided to start the business, and then what did that look like? What was the beginning of it? You started making cheese. And by the way I tasted it at a couple of different expos and love it, love cashews by themselves. But I love you're able to do with the cashews, the different flavors, the robust flavors. I don't want to say I'm a foodie or a food snob or whatever, but I don't believe that there's really any purpose in eating bland food. So being able to have something that tastes great, that's got those robust flavor profiles, that's what I gravitate towards. So how were you able to get started? What did that look like? How were you able to build the business, etc?

Miyoko: Well things had changed so much I really wasn't sure how to get back into business. Because my last business hadn't been successful. I didn't have a profitable exit or anything like that. I just really didn't have the confidence and I wasn't sure if I could make it work. And so I was thinking very small. I thought, "Okay, I'm going to just start out really small. I'm going to be a local business and have a little cheese shop, and I'm going to have an eCommerce business. So I'm going to sell the cheeses online and I'm going to have a little storefront where mountain bikers will come and have a cheese plate on weekends and things like that." And we went live on, it was four years ago, September. We went live on eCommerce on a Friday, on the first Friday of the month. And by the following Monday we had 500 unique orders, averaging about $100.

And I was shocked. I was like, "Oh my God, I can't believe that demand for this." So business model, I didn't really have a solid business plan beyond the first year or so. And that just completely shifted after that first month. Went from four employees to within three months, we were in Whole Foods Nor Cal through a local distribution. Within a year we got into UNFI not in all the DCs but in some of them. And got into a lot of the other whole foods regions. I just started thinking about the business differently again. The retail shop never opened up. The storefront never opened up. We still do eCommerce, but it's a very small piece of our business, and we just decided we've got to scale this thing as fast as we can, as big as we can because I see a huge opportunity for making an impact on our global food system.

Not just me, but all the other players in this category. We're running out of resources like crazy. We're destroying the planet. We're definitely destroying the animals. I have on the side, I started in the nonprofit, I have a farmed animal sanctuary. And I rescue cows and goats and pigs, and animals that would be in the food system and provide a home for them and an opportunity for them to live their lives the way they see fit. And my purpose in life is to create a world that's based on conscious eating, conscious compassionate eating. And if you stay small, if you stay just local, that's great. And you'll be supporting the local consumers. But the bigger we get, the bigger we can all grow together to expand our category, to reach more people, the more of an impact we're going to have.

So I realized that fairly quickly and I allowed myself to dream a little bigger. At first I was afraid to dream because I thought I'm not going to succeed I don't have what it takes, it's not in the cards for me. And with each little success, I just kept thinking I'm going to expand my dream. I'm going to expand my dream. We're going to get bigger, we're going to get bigger. Until you know right now as far as I'm concerned, it's hashtag plant dairy revolution and I'm ready to take over the world. Yeah, but it took awhile to get that and build the confidence I think.

Dan: Well, I'm glad you did. My mission is to make a healthy way of life more assessable by getting your product in more retailer shelves and in the hands of more shoppers. It's very similar in the sense that if we can get people to understand and appreciate the value of quality food like vegan, etc., plant based, that's going to change the way we look at things. And I don't know if you had a chance to listen to a lot of the different podcast episodes, but the focus has been on how do we educate consumers. How do we educate retailers about making this world a better place, making our food system more sustainable by helping brands like you succeed and not be viewed as an ATM machine? How do we help you stand out on a crowded shelf with the bigger competitors? So thank you for sharing that. So when you're talking about, back up a little bit, impact the global food system, specifically what are you talking about? How do you view that? Are you talking about the climate change? Are you talking about the way we use water, etc? What is your primary focus in that area?

Miyoko: Well, it's all linked. Climate change is linked to how we use water, to all of our resources. To land use, how much land agriculture takes up, to the treatment of animals. It's all related. And the more we commodify other species for example, and we value them as the primary food source, it leads to a huge amount of land being used to ... We grow crops to feed the animals. And if you just think about that, just animals themselves take up over one third of all US landmass. And then there's the farms that support the animals. We're already talking about over one half of the entire United States. And we're at a globe of 9 billion people that we're going to have to support by 2050. And the question is, how do we feed everybody? How do we feed everyone in an equitable fashion? How do we overcome food deserts? How do we feed everyone without destroying the planet?

By 2020 if we don't do something in terms of starting to reverse climate change, we are going to be in a very serious predicament. And some of your other podcast folks like the Ripple have really spoken eloquently about this. And we really, really need to address this. It's going to take more than one brand. It really is business plus consumers equals real change, because we're a capitalist society. We're a consumer society. We buy products. And so those industry has to take the initiative. It's absolutely, I think a moral obligation of industry to rethink how they create products, how they deliver products. It's no longer just hey, "Let's make this product because it's going to make money." But I think there's a moral obligation at this point. If we want to make sure that we have a planet to live on, we better start making products that support that. So yeah. That's why I feel it's so important that this category grows as fast as possible. It's going to take all the players in it and even more.

Dan: And in your neighborhood, and your neighborhood meaning in California with all the droughts and everything that's going on. I've got to wonder how these farmers that are in there are going to survive. They don't have the labor to help pick the crops, they don't have the water to be able to support the, the plant growth, etc. And then all the other things that compound on that. So my point being is that finding alternative food systems or alternative foods to really take a lot of pressure off, I think is something that we as a planet, as a country, really need to do. And I agree with you 100 percent. Businesses need to take the initiative. And one of the things that I keep stressing or or trying to push is that natural is the R&D of the CBG industry. And where I'm going with that is that's where you see the trend of the nation, where large brands they'll slap a different label on it, they'll change a flavoring and they'll say this is innovation. But consumers are becoming aware of this and becoming weary of it.

And so that's why big brands are struggling are in shelf. And that's why the small brands really driving sales. And so a little bit of background. First time I had the privilege of meeting you was at Plant Based Food Association event. And it was actually shortly after I had published a feature article for the 2016 category management handbook. Where I was able to identify and isolate the fact that it was organic, and I used that as an example, that was driving sales across every category. And if you took that small chunk of the pie out of the, out of the dairy category or other categories, every category is flat or declining. Well, the underlying theme behind that project was that I was trying to understand how plant based foods were interacting and effecting category growth. And I actually did the project as a prelude to something that was, and it helped the Plant Based Food Association with it. And the whole idea behind it was that trying to isolate or trying to understand what are the trends within plant based foods, and how are they growing sales. And my point being is that plant based food makes an even bigger impact. Higher sales growth and higher profit, higher demand, etc. per category. And if you remove that even smaller chunk of that business out of every category, every category is lower, flat, or declining, etc.

Miyoko: Right, and higher spend for consumer as well too.

Dan: I'm so glad you mentioned that. Yeah, because this is how you grow category growth. If you change a flavor of a Triscuit or something like that, you're simply adding another product at same price, etc. But you're right. If you can actually grow category sales, that's the win-win and that's why retailers need to pay attention to what you are doing. So when you're talking about some of the other different things that you're involved in, I also had the privilege of listening to you and meeting with you and talking to you at the climate collaborative event where you're a rising star. So can you talk a little bit about that and your involvement in the climate collaborative?

Miyoko: Sure. The Climate Collaborative is a spinoff of OSC2 called the Organic Sustainable Community and it's a consortium of natural food, natural product companies in Nor Cal, and the Climate Collaborative was founded, partly out of that. Companies make commitments across a broad spectrum of climate issues. So it can be about packaging or forest stewardship, or sourcing ingredient, supply chain, that sort of thing. And it really is to bring awareness to what we need to do as an industry to make change across the spectrum. And it's really exciting because we were actually able to make a packaging change this past year that we didn't think we would be able to make, but we were able to package our butter which was previously in plastic in a compostable wax paper, and it meant shelf life studies, etc.

We weren't sure we were going to be able to succeed. But it's really exciting to see all these different companies trying to figure out how to reduce their impact through their consumer package goods. One of the criticisms that sometimes people make is well, it's great you're making a vegan product, but look at all that plastic. So all of us are somewhat guilty of putting things out into the consumer space. People want convenience. People want to be able to go out and buy products. People aren't just buying beans and nuts and going home and making everything from scratch. They want the convenience of a clean label product, but they also want it in something that's completely compostable and that just disappears into the ether. And unfortunately it puts really big strain on companies to just stay abreast of what's going on.

But we have to, I mean we have to figure out how to incorporate new methodologies for processing and for packaging that will reduce waste and try to find better sources of a product, and really make sure that we know what our supply chain is, whether it's in agriculture, whatever it is, there's so many areas that all of us can work on. So as a company, if you join the Climate Collaborative, there's no cost involved. You just join and you make commitments and you work towards that and you provide a yearly report. It keeps you on track. So you're focusing on areas where you can make those commitments. Hopefully you get to a point where you can make commitments across that broad spectrum.

Dan: Which is so important because it's all of us working together to solve a common problem. In fact, I didn't join for a long time. I had talked to Laura Dickinson, she was on the podcast and she's the executive director. And then also Ahmed Rahim. And so those are the guys that the people that started OSC2 climate collaborative. And so-

Miyoko: They're great. They're really great.

Dan: Yeah. They're amazing. So yeah, previous podcast, so go back and listen to those. But it's such an important moment and you'll love the fact that one of my focus areas is packaging, solving this exact problem. So I've got some really great strategic relationships where I'm actually developing a course to help teach brands about sustainable packaging. And then doing a lot of hopefully being able to work with a climate collaborative. That's something down the road. Keep my fingers crossed, but organic trade association. Any of the organizations that are out there, and hoping to be able to open a lot of doors about what is sustainable packaging compostable, what does it mean, what's available out there to help brands out. So that's actually absolutely my wheelhouse and that's absolutely a focus on that I'm working on. So thank you for sharing that. So what is a rising star? I mentioned that you were an event and you were recognized as one of the rising stars.

Miyoko: Are you talking about in OSC2?

Dan: Through Climate Collaborative I thought.

Miyoko: Oh yeah. Okay. OSC2 is the larger parent organization and then they put together a smaller group of smaller companies that hadn't hit a certain revenue level yet, that were younger. We'll put it that way. And so that's the rising stars group that is part of OSC@. So there's the core group and the rising stars group.

Dan: Gotcha. Okay. Thanks. Yeah, I appreciate that. I should have gone back and should have highlighted a little bit more about the plant based food association. Can you talk about that group, what you do, your role there? I know you're on the board, and I think it's an amazing group that is trying to change the way that brands and retailers think about how they interact with consumers.

Miyoko: Right. So it does actually a lot more than that. So it's the first trade association that represents the plant base industry. And we have a number of members now including some larger groups like a Campbell and Blue Diamond, which is really fantastic. And it really is about, so there's several components. One of it is actually policies. So we are actively lobbying and for change regarding the farm bill, the checkoff program, and labeling. Right now we're being challenged by a lot of labeling issues that the FDA has standards of identity that defines what you can call milk, or meat, or whatever, or the USDA has that for me. And Missouri just passed a law saying you can't call a product meat if it doesn't come from an animal, etc.

So we are actively challenging some of those issues, those labeling laws. And we've come up with our own standards, voluntary standards that we are proposing to the FDA so that we can call almond milk, almond milk rather than almond beverage or almond water or whatever. Those standards exist in order to prevent confusion in the marketplace by consumers. But our own surveys show that consumers aren't confused, they know exactly what they're buying when they buy almond milk, they know that it's not from a hoofed animal. So that's one of the things that we do is policy change. We're also reaching out to retailers, as you mentioned. We're reaching out to, there's a food service component as well. Just trying to create visibility and awareness about what we're doing. So that's the big educational component that will help retailers make decisions about expanding the category of the shelf space for a product such as ours. So we're really out there to represent plant based foods in not just in the retail space but in regulatory as well.

Dan: Great. Yeah, that's so important. In fact, I actually had the privilege of being able to introduce you to Nielsen and help them define or create a custom aggregate for a category, how you define the category, which is what you're using now in a lot of your data-

Miyoko: Great yeah. Yeah, you mentioned that to me. I appreciate that because that's really important and that's where we get some of our figures about how big the whole industry is going to be. It's growing really fast.

Dan: It is. And that's one of the things that I focus on is trying to help brands help associations, help groups like this really understand how do you take that to the next level? Because to back up quite a ways, where we started this conversation, what is vegan? If I'm a retailer, why do I care? And more importantly, trying to educate the retailer that the consumer that buys your product is also going to buy other products that are super premium within the category. Your market basket, what you drive, what you contribute to the retailer, not only in terms of their profits from your product, but across all the other products that are complimentary to your product. You're more of a value add to the retailer. So trying to change that strategy. So that's what my courses, the podcast, and all the content I put out is really focused on is helping to solve that need.

So I really appreciate the fact that you're on the board and I think it's a great organization. And I'm really looking forward to more from you guys in terms of is as your voice grows. Because back to your point, consumers are smart, they're not stupid. And they underStand the difference between a milk that's almond based or pea protein, excuse me, pre-protein or animal or whatever. And the fact that we're giving consumers choices. And one of the things that we haven't talked about, we should probably talk about this, is that plant based products are typically, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't believe that they have the allergen issues. I don't know of any plant based products that create any allergen issues that you would find in highly processed products across the other areas of the store.

Miyoko: Well, that's not entirely true because for example, people can have a peanut allergy or a cashew allergy, or a coconut allergy. So there are allergens, or soy allergy. So there are allergens across in plant based foods as well too. But there are a lot of plant based foods that aren't allergenic. So our products currently are cashew and coconut base. But we are working on some new products that involve not so allergenic foods. So there are some items that we have that we're making out of legumes for example. And some grains that are gluten free. So hopefully we're going to be able to succeed and come up with some new styles of cheese next year that will be allergen free.

Dan: Cool. And that's what we need to continue raising the bar. So I really appreciate that. Right. So you started the business and life is good. You're starting to grow sales. Where are you at in terms of where you want to be? What's the future look like? What's next on the horizon for you?

Miyoko: Well, what's really exciting this year is that we finally built out a real team of people here. A solid marketing team, sales, finance. We were just, I had one other person who was my right hand person and he and I did everything up until recently. And so we put together a beautiful team, R&D. It's really exciting. We've got some exciting IP stuff that we're developing that I can't really share yet. But I'm hoping that, that could also, if we succeed could change the way that we make vegan cheese or plant based cheese. But right now we're really just working on the growth of, we're getting into major chains now. We're going to start exporting to Canada. And we have a food service opportunity as well too, so there's a lot of opportunity out before us right now between now and the next six months.

A lot of new sales targets in the pipeline, and deals. So we're really excited about that. But we're also trying to really shift people's consciousness about plant based foods. And we had this campaign that we call the plant dairy revolution that we're starting. And it's really about thinking about what's the trajectory of dairy products? Where is that going? The future of dairy, is it going to continue coming from animals or is it possible that dairy can come from plants? And we really think because of all the environmental issues, animal welfare, etc. That more and more consumers are going to continue choosing plant based products over animal based dairy products. And so we want to just change that shift in consciousness and say, "Hey, dairy products of the future come from plants." And they come from animals.

So instead of being an alternative, right now the products like ours are often found in the so called alternative set at a grocery store. Our cheeses are not sold in the cheese case. They're sold in a separate area along with tofu and some meat, some vegan meats, meat substitutes as they call them, etc. And they're all crammed in this tiny little area that if you're not vegan or vegetarian, you're probably not going to look in that area.

Dan: Right.

Miyoko: Which is why companies like Beyond Meat decided, "We're going to sell the Beyond sausage, but it's going to be sold at the meat counter and that's where we want it." and the same thing has to happen in the dairy space. Our products, our dairy products have to start being sold in the real dairy set, not in the so called alternative set within the dairy case. So we're going to really, really push this campaign of the plant dairy revolution where we go out there and say we're not a dairy alternative, we're not dairy free, we're animal dairy free. But we're plant dairy and we think we deserve a seat at the table along with your cheese from France. And that's what we're trying to do is get that shift in consciousness at the buyer level as well as at the consumer level.

Dan: And that's what I was actually getting at in terms of when I was asking about the allergen question, framed it wrong. But my point is that animals, cows are not designed to eat grain and hay. And because of that the milk, the milk that they produce is not the same as you would get from a grass fed cow, which is radically different. And just focusing on those two different product attributes that makes a big change in terms of the people's ability to absorb the nutrients and and reduce the gut issues that you can get from a lot of milks, a lot of lactose free, etc. But then more importantly to take the next step, by putting you in a category or putting you in a section of the store that doesn't allow you to compete head to head, toe to toe with the other products that you're like like you said, the artisan cheeses. Not only does that hurt you as a brand, hurt the mission, etc., but it fails to give consumers the choices that they deserve. Allow them to make the choices.

And the point being that consumers look beyond the four corners of their package. And if they look at the product and they can see what's in it and they can make the determination what's the best choice for them and their family, that's how you grow sales one. And then two, by having a store within the store concept within a store, because you're in a different part of the store, that's a horrible way to really drive sales and drive awareness. And so one of the things that I would love to be able to help you plant based foods association, etc. with and your mission is be able to change that conversation. Because if we cannot as an industry help the retailers understand why their consumers make the choices they make, and then more importantly give the opportunity to the consumers to make the choices and not invite that same consumer to go to your competition because you're not listening to them, then I think that's how we're going to win at shelf, and that's how we're going to grow this industry.

Miyoko: No, absolutely. I mean it makes no sense. If you look in the snack aisle, it's not like let's say there was some special potato chip that's made differently that's in a different section of the store. If it's a novel potato chip, it's still going to be sold in the snack aisle. But for some reason, they take products that are vegan or vegetarian or plant based, and they separate them from everywhere else and they consolidate them in this one little tiny set. I don't know why they do that. It doesn't make sense, and they don't do it with any other product. They're beginning to do that with gluten free too. But actually gluten free products are found throughout the store. If you're looking for gluten free cracker, you go to the cracker aisle and then they'll have gluten free products there. If you're looking for gluten free noodles, they're in the noodle area. It's not like they take the gluten free items. Sometimes they do, but rarely do they consolidate them all in one place. So I don't know why they do that with plant based products, but they need to change because I think retailers are leaving money on the table. I think they're going to sell more product by actually distributing the products throughout the store in the appropriate section.

Dan: Well, and that's what I was talking about, about that feature article and the work that I did, the prelude to help you guys with the data, but you're obviously right. And so to go back one step further, I was helping some gluten free brands work through the same thing where they get dumped into a weird place in the category into the store, and consumers didn't know where to find them. Or one of the things that I see is a lot of natural organic products end up in the catchall category, if you will in the baking aisle, which doesn't make any sense at all. And this is one of the things that I really am trying to get the industry to think about in terms of the way we communicate the value in.

What I'm getting at is using the bread example, I use this a lot. If you go to the shelf and you buy the cheap generic bread, you're hungry almost before you finish eating it. If you buy the best mainstream bread that's out there and it satisfies you for three or four hours and then you pay right next to it, you've got the organic bread that might satiate you for an extra hour or two, but it costs more money. If you are what you eat then what you eat matters. And what I mean by that is that if you're eating the products that fuel your body, that give you the nutrients that you need, then it's actually cheaper to pay a few extra pennies at shelf for something that satiates you longer that's going to help you with your nutritional needs. Help you feel better, help you have that fuel throughout the day. And so what I'm getting at is it's that kind of message. It's leveraging those strategies to help reeducate retailers on why the strategy that you're sharing with us in terms of alternative set is wrong. Because-

Miyoko: Right. And it goes away, right. Yeah. No, no, no. It goes even beyond that because it's the old adage, food is medicine because that healthier, organic bread is going to keep you from going to the doctor perhaps. So you're saving in that respect as well.

Dan: Absolutely. And then these are the things that ... I've got my free turnkey sale store strategies course, which is really focused on helping brands learn how to tell that story. And again, it's so critically important that every brand do that and do it well and be able to have that same passion and enthusiasm that you have all the way through your entire sales funnel. So thank you for sharing that. What other things have we have we missed? Oh, before I hit the record button, we were having a conversation about the relationship between smaller brands and larger brands and how we have the ability to learn from the larger brands, and at the same time we have the ability to educate them on what makes natural, natural. And get them to refocus on the consumer, which is what we've just talking about and how they can be more laser focused on supporting their consumer rather than continually just throwing stuff on the shelf and hoping it sticks.

Miyoko: Right, right. No, absolutely, we were talking about that. This is really pertinent to us because very recently, we were invited to apply for a business accelerator program focusing on innovative food solutions for the future called [CARA 01:00:29], which is put on by Rabobank and Rocket Space, which is a business incubator in San Francisco. So we applied and we were selected out of hundreds of applications. I was a little surprised that we were selected, but we were. And there were 17 companies that were selected and then there were eight corporations, larger food companies that are involved that are going to be helping to mentor some of us. So we got paired with Nestle, and I see that as a real opportunity actually to not just learn from them in certain areas. One of them is consumer insights that we'll be working with as well as food service, but also for us to get our message across.

And I had a conversation with them. I said, "What is your interest in us? We are a mission based company and I just want you to understand that." And they were just like, "Yeah, that's why we want to learn from you." I see this as a huge opportunity as I was mentioning to you about the Beyond Meat example. Tyson's investment in beyond meat and their investment in Memphis Meat has transformed that company. So they don't call themselves a meat company anymore. They think of themselves as a protein company, and that the future of protein could come from plants more than meat, than from animals. So the involvement with these smaller disruptive plant based brands has helped Tyson transition the way they're thinking about food for the future. And I think all of these big brands understand what's going on with climate change and losing sales, because they're losing market share to these disruptive brands. And they either need to shift, or danger lurks ahead.

It's hard to shift when you're that large. It's hard to just change course. And they need the help of smaller brands to figure out how to do it. The fact is, if these disruptive brands are going to make an impact, we either have to grow really fast and get really big on our own, or we can in some way work with a larger corporate and help them shift their policies, the way they do things, the products that they make, and get to that goal faster. These larger corporations, if they see that their investments in, let's say better for you products and plant based products is returning an investment that's much higher than their conventional, they're not going to keep putting money in the conventional, the stuff that's not working. They're going to start siphoning money more into the better for you brands. So I think this is a perfect way to get there faster that benefits the entire world. It benefits consumers. It benefits those large corporations that will eventually start changing who they really are. It's very possible that all of these corporations in 20 years could be, or maybe even 10 years because of the help of the disruptive companies can be completely different entities with a different mission.

Dan: Absolutely. Sorry you going to say something else?

Miyoko: Yeah no, that's it. We have not been acquired by a larger corporation or anything like that, but we do have this wonderful opportunity I think to affect a larger corporation, and to learn from them. So I think it's a real win-win.

Dan: Absolutely it is. And I'm glad you're taking advantage of that. And I mentioned to you that today's podcast it's going to be released, is [inaudible 01:04:06] Justin Gold of Justin's. And he's partnered with Hormel. And the key takeaway that I wanted to share with you in the audience is that, and again you can go back and listen to him talk about it, is he's helping to change Hormel from within. And so while a lot of people, yeah, there are a lot of stores where big companies have ruined little companies and so on and so forth. And a lot of people have accused about selling out and not being true to their mission.

But the reality is if we want to affect change, which is what you've been talking about most of our conversation, the best way to do it is be able to affect change from within of a big company. Get them to change the way they think about food, the way they look at their consumers. And this is how we change things on a broader scale. I mean let's think of it this way. If Frito or PNG, or Pepsi, or any of these brands decided tomorrow that we are only going to have our products in sustainable packaging, that problem would be solved in a heartbeat. But because-

Miyoko: Oh my god, that would be amazing.

Dan: Wouldn't it? So to make the same analogy. So I applaud what you're doing and I applaud the opportunity for a big brand to have the wherewithal to reach out, and work with you, and support you, and everything else. So thank you for sharing that. We've covered a lot. Is there anything that we've missed that you'd like to add?

Miyoko: No. I want to thank you for all the work you're doing to help change the retail landscape and yeah.

Dan: Well I appreciate that. And before I let you go, one more thing that I mentioned this when I met with you at [inaudible 01:05:46]. At the end of the podcast, I've been giving my guests an opportunity to ask me a question. Is there something, a bottleneck or something I can help you solve?

Miyoko: Well let's talk about what we just talked about.

Dan: Okay.

Miyoko: How would you portray the cooperation between a disruptive company and a larger company? How would you portray that to the public in a way where everyone understands we're all fighting the same battle?

Dan: Love it. Okay. Here's what I'd recommend. First of all, you need to become an expert in your consumer. You need to know who your consumer is. Not the old female head of household, 2.3 kids, all that kind of stuff. But more importantly, where do they live? How do they shop? What are their habits? When they eat a vegan product, what do they eat at with? How do they consume things? In other words, really intimately have a relationship with your consumer, one. Two, become intimately familiar with your competitors' products and really understand them. And then three, be able to really partner with your retailers to be able to really help them understand what your consumer looks like. And where I'm going with that is that if you can help educate the consumer that's buying your product within the retail store, understand what unique, what's important, your mission and all that other stuff. That's so very, very important. That's the beginning of the conversation.

I would say even more importantly that though is you need to own your relationship. Develop a community. Own your own relationship with your customers offline, because they're your customers. So I would say that if you could find a way to develop a customer base, a customer community, a thriving community off of your website. Through your social media, etc., your digital presence, then that's going to help you. So instead of playing catch up or whatever it was that you ran into in terms of trying to get ahead of the messaging, now you've got a community that's going to stand up for you that understands the strategic decisions that you're making. That understands that you're still true to who you were and that nothing's really changed, and that this is a really good viable opportunity.

Okay? Now when you leverage all those components together, now you can help the big brand understand what makes natural, natural. Now you can help the bigger brand understand what's unique about our industry so that when they start to partner with and support smaller brands, they have the wherewithal to be careful about how it's messaged, to be careful about how they interact with you, and not try to create you into a likeness of themselves. One of the things I say a lot of times it goes up. A lot of the bigger brands and retailers and solution providers try to commoditize the natural products and the natural consumer. And I give an example. They believe for example, the [inaudible 01:08:51] consumer someone who eats a couple salads and goes for a walk. Whereas in our world, the [inaudible 01:08:55] consumer is someone is interested in their carbon footprint, someone who's interested in giving back to the planet, into the missions that a lot of these brands align with. And so by us helping to educate the retailers, the community, and the larger brands about what makes natural natural, about what makes our product unique, that's how we're not only going to drive sales at retail. How we're going to partner beyond just being an ATM machine and retail.

What I mean by that is that if you become a value added resource, a category leader, a category leader in my mind is any brand willing and able to step up to help educate and help the retailer drive sales within their category. If you become more than just a package on the shelf, then they're going to reach out to you for incremental promotions, incremental opportunities. But more importantly, they're going to help join your mission and amplify your voice. Does that help?

Miyoko: Oh, absolutely. Yes. Yes, yeah. Agreed.

Dan: And at the end of the day, this is how we raise the bar for everyone.

Miyoko: Absolutely. Yeah. We all have a part to play.

Dan: Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate your time and I look forward to the next time we bump into each other.

Miyoko: Yeah. Thank you so much. I think it's been great. Thank you.

Dan: I want to thank Miyoko for coming on the podcast today and for sharing her insights, I'll be certain to put a link to Miyoko's Kitchen on the podcast page, on my website, and in a link to the show notes. Today we talked a lot about the importance of having a solid selling story when working with retailers to help retailers understand why your consumer is unique, and how your consumer is going to drive more traffic in their stores, and how they are going to be the key growth driver across all categories. This is exactly why I build and launch my free turnkey sell stories strategies course to teach brands, every brand, exactly how to leverage these strategies. The strategies that I talked about in this podcast and almost every podcast. These strategies will help you get your product on more retailer shelves and into the hands of more shoppers. You can get a link to this and today's podcast at brandsecretsandstrategies.com/session94. Thank you again for listening, and I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.

Miyoko's Kitchen https://miyokos.com

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