BRAND SECRETS AND STRATEGIES

PODCAST #212

Hello and thank you for joining us today. This is the Brand Secrets and Strategies Podcast #212

Welcome to the Brand Secrets and Strategies podcast where the focus is on empowering brands and raising the bar.

I’m your host Dan Lohman. This weekly show is dedicated to getting your brand on the shelf and keeping it there.

Get ready to learn actionable insights and strategic solutions to grow your brand and save you valuable time and money.

LETS ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES AND GET STARTED!

Dan: Gail, thank you for coming on today. Can you please tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey to CAULIPOWER

Gail: Oh my gosh, how long do you have? It's been a crazy journey.

Dan: 45 minutes you said.

Gail: So yeah, my journey to CAULIPOWER is probably one of the most unlikely. I was working in corporate America. I was very happy there. I had a great job with a lot of perks, but I was unfulfilled and the longer I stayed, the more unfulfilled I became. So I was really disenchanted with what I was finding in corporate America. Along the same lines, I am the mom of two boys with celiac disease and they were diagnosed at such a young age that there was no gluten-free food in the store. So what it did was it gave me a really good perch from which to watch the gluten-free industry evolve.

And what I began to notice over the years was how much junk the industry was putting in gluten-free food. More fat, sugar, salt and calories, and fewer nutrients. I sort of thought, like probably many people you have on your show that surely someone will see this and someone will do something about it. But unfortunately, no one ever did and so I think it's really fair to say that CAULIPOWER was born out of a frustration of waiting. I think the third and most, in many ways, the most important aspect to my jump, as it were, was the passing of my dad who was an immigrant to this country. Came here with nothing, less than nothing, and built a small business. Built a small business, owned his own home in San Francisco, and really lived the American Dream.

What ended up happening is that when he passed, something inside me changed pretty dramatically. I wanted to follow in his entrepreneurial footsteps. I wanted to honor him in some way, although to be perfectly honest with you, I didn't know which way that would be. So what I did is I sort of put all those three things in a blender and what I came out with was "I know, I'm going to leave my job and start a company called CAULIPOWER." Perfectly logical, and that's what I did.

Dan: Interesting. So first of all, what did your dad do? What was his line of work?

Gail: So my father, interestingly, was in the salvage business.

Dan: Oh okay. So how does that relate to what you do now? Salvaging plants? Cauliflower.

Gail: There is actually a strong relationship to what he did. So he was in the salvage business. He would sell products that were maybe... let's say there are a warehouse and the warehouse caught on fire, half the goods wouldn't be good anymore, but the other half could be still sold at a discount to hotels and restaurants around San Francisco, and that's what he used to do. The interesting connection is most of that was food and canned goods, and most of it... and I didn't realize it at the time, but I used to go on sales calls with my dad. I had no idea at the time. We would just go to restaurants, talk to people in the backroom, try different products and then we'd stay and have dinner where we were.

So that was such a strong memory for me. I had no idea that it would set the stage for my entire life. In fact, the restaurant I remember going to most was an Italian pizzeria, and the product that he sold the most of was canned tomatoes.

Dan: Interesting. Well, that's a great story. I love the fact that you learned how to be resourceful. I mean, that's what every entrepreneur needs. So that's a great starting place. Great story. So you learned how to sell-

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: You learned how to work hard and you learned how to find the good in the... wreck, let's say. Whatever. So that's good.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: Well I mean, if you think about it, why would anyone use cauliflower to do something like... to make something like that. Now, we've been using-

Gail: Exactly.

Dan: It for years and we love it, but most people don't understand that it's more than just something you put on a salad or whatever.

Gail: Right.

Dan: So gluten-free, let's back up and talk about your sons. How old are they now?

Gail: So my sons now one is 21 and the other is 17.

Dan: Okay and they're doing good? I mean, on a gluten-free diet?

Gail: Yeah. I mean, today it's really easy. Today it's so easy. You don't even have to blink twice, but at the time that they were growing up, it was really hard.

Dan: Sure.

Gail: It's funny, I remember when their friends would come over to play on a Saturday and it was time for lunch and like most parents, I just wanted to stick some frozen pizzas in the oven and feed everybody, and I remember my son's in the early days said, "Mom, just serve us the gluten-free pizzas. Serve them the regular pizzas." They said that because they were embarrassed about the way they looked and tasted and they didn't want their friends to know. It was such an important insight to me that I didn't know what I would do with it, but I sort of lodged it in the back of my brain and I thought, "Someday, this is going to be important to me." Didn't know-how, certainly didn't realize this. And that's exactly what happened.

So that was the spirit and the ethos behind CAULIPOWER. Everybody can share it from the same plate. Yes, everything we do is gluten-free, but we don't even market ourselves as a gluten-free brand, because we are really for everybody. No matter what your reasons are for eating it. Maybe you want a lower calorie pizza, maybe you want a gluten-free pizza, maybe you just want a great tasting pizza. CAULIPOWER can serve all of those needs.

Dan: Love that. My sister has celiac and you'll get a kick out of this. So when they would buy a pizza, she'd eat the toppings, they'd get the crust.

Gail: Oh my god. That's awful.

Dan: I know and she grew up on toast. I mean, that's the only thing she could make for years.

Gail: I have some free coupon products for her. I have free product coupons for her.

Dan: Oh yeah, and actually [crosstalk 00:06:42] mention that. I'm going to put that at the beginning of the show and the show notes, et cetera.

Gail: Yeah more.

Dan: So thank you. But no, yeah. We are huge fans too and so that's why I've been looking forward to talking to you. Okay, you solved a problem. Why in the heck did you go from where you were to start a food business? That's kind of a stretch. I mean, that's a huge leap.

Gail: I think the phrase "kind of a stretch" is-

Dan: Yeah.

Gail: Really being very nice.

Dan: I am.

Gail: It was crazy. Let's realize, it was nuts. Now, it's all well and good to say, "Oh, look how smart you were. Look how crazy you were." No. Absolutely not. I had a thousand reasons why I shouldn't have done what I did, but the only thing that I can speak to that sort of makes any sense of it is that I really felt it was a calling.

Dan: Good.

Gail: And I think I felt that a lot because of my father, and I just wanted to do something that was going to impact people in a positive way. Really help people make their lives better in some teeny, tiny, little way. I felt that was my calling and that was my duty, and I knew it was never going to happen if I just stayed where I was.

Dan: Which is an example of why I like Natural. I love Natural because it's to me, it's what makes Natural Natural. The fact that here we are as an organization, not an organization, but a group of people that are like-minded looking to do more for the common good for other people. The fact it's not about how do I compete against Wall Street or whatever, against any of the other pizzas. [crosstalk 00:08:27] now, how did you create the product?

Gail: So that was difficult. I mean, the whole process of that was difficult, even starting with quite frankly, just trying to find someone to make it for me. I mean, can you imagine walking into these manufacturers and saying, "Hi, I've never worked in manufacturing, certainly never worked in food before, but we have this idea. I'd like to make a crust, a pizza crust out of cauliflower, can we do that?" I mean, they looked at me like I had three eyes and I don't blame them. So even just starting with finding someone to make them for me, convincing them to take a bet on someone who's never done this before, and then working really hard to get the right product.

I knew that if it didn't pass the taste test of my two sons who continue to be my focus to this day, I knew it wouldn't achieve my goal of trying to better people's lives. If I can't create a product that kids would like, what's the point?

Dan: Exactly.

Gail: So that was always my north star.

Dan: So how did you actually create it? Okay, we used to use cauliflower for mashed potatoes and things like that-

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: But to create a pizza crust, a solid something that you could bake and stuff-

Gail: It was a lot of trial and error.

Dan: Okay.

Gail: It was a lot of trial and error. I mean, I started in my home. I really only made it one time in my house because I just thought it was such a ridiculous undertaking to spend 90 minutes to make a pizza crust. It was that insight upon which the entire company was built, and then it was a lot of trial and error, you know? We had a lot of good products that... good tasting that was hard to make or a lot of product that was easy to make but didn't taste well. I mean lots and lots of iterations, which we tried every single night until we got it right.

Dan: But you did try it at home before you took it to someone, so you had a validation.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: Okay.

Gail: Oh yeah.

Dan: Okay.

Gail: Not more than... far more important than me having a validation, let's be clear, I did not invent cauliflower crust pizza. The day that I made that one pizza, there were 569,000 recipes on the internet. I didn't invent it.

Dan: Oh okay.

Gail: Who invented it? Your listeners invented it because they created it because the industry wasn't giving them what they wanted. All I did was bring it to life. All I did was say, "Hey, it's kind of crazy that you all are making us go to this extreme to make a pizza crust. Why doesn't someone just do it and make it easier and save us all a lot of blood, sweat, and heartache? So that's exactly what I did, but I didn't create it. I just helped bring the vision of everyone else to live.

Dan: No, that's great. So Main Street versus Wall Street, so how did you find a way to actually produce it at the point where you could actually turn it into a business?

Gail: Well the great thing about this country I always say, and maybe this is even particularly true now is that you can hire people to help you with just about anything.

Dan: Yeah.

Gail: So I hired experts to help me. Experts in manufacturing, experts in sales, things that I didn't know. I think it's really... I think there is this sort of misperception that a lot of entrepreneurs have that they think because it's their company and their vision that they have to have all the answers. I think one of the advantages of being a slightly older entrepreneur is that I was really comfortable in saying, "I don't have all the answers." In fact, I'm so comfortable in saying I don't have all the answers, I know enough to hire people who do and that's what I did. I didn't know anything about food. I didn't know anything about manufacturing. I did know a little something about marketing because I worked in it for many years. So I led with what I knew and then I hired people around me to help fill in the gaps and to teach me.

Since the beginning of this business, I have learned something new every single day and I still continue to learn new things every single day. You know what? Anyone who is in a position in life, not just work, but in anything that we take on, who isn't learning and growing, it's time to leave.

Dan: Love that attitude. This is exactly why I do what I do because trying to help other brands, first of all, inspire them but give them the right tools, the right insights, who to go to.

Gail: Right.

Dan: So how did you... this is one of the biggest questions I get, how did you differentiate the information that you're getting that was good from the information that was not good? Because a lot of brands run into that.

Gail: What a great question. Here's what I would say. I think when you're an entrepreneur starting a business, you have to do two things. One, you have to know how the industry works. You have to know which rule in the industry to follow. The conventional wisdom, the tried and true, the rules that are going to work and help you build your business. [inaudible 00:14:07] but you also have to know which rules to break, and I think one of the reasons that CAULIPOWER is successful is because quite frankly, we broke a lot of rules.

Dan: Good for you.

Gail: And you have to have enough confidence to do that. I really felt like, "Look, if this is going to work, I got to do it my way. I got to do what I think is right and hopefully, the universe will pay me back." I think that's what happened, but we broke a lot of rules. It's funny because we broke a lot of rules that now other people are following, you know? So I love that. That's a tremendous compliment.

Dan: Well hats to you. I mean, what I keep saying is shouldn't you go to market strategy? Every bit is creative and is disruptive as the ingredients in your packaging? And yet so many brands follow the same cookie-cutter, same old strategy and it just frustrates me to no end that there are so many people that have their hand out and look at you as a brand as an ATM machine-

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: Rather than trying to help you solve a problem that is best for you. I mean, for example, a broker that is focused on getting your distribution, but not focused on whether or not it makes sense for you to be in that store, that kind of thing.

Gail: Yeah. Exactly, exactly.

Dan: So can you go on about that? Can you share more about that?

Gail: Yeah, I'll give a couple of real-life examples if you want.

Dan: Sure.

Gail: One just to go off of what you just said. We were in Wal-Mart nationally pretty early on in our trajectory. So we... I left... I started the company in May of 2016. We launched the company in February of 2017 and we were in Wal-Mart by October 2017.

Dan: That's quick.

Gail: That is quick and probably one of the quickest, but the thing is Wal-Mart took a chance on us and I took a chance on Wal-Mart, and it's paid off very well for both of us. But I have a lot of people tell me, "Too soon to go into Wal-Mart. Don't do it this way. This is the trajectory, you start out small and natural, then you grow your footprint in national to go bigger, and then sometime down the line, you go into Wal-Mart." Well, guess what? I'm not doing... I didn't start this company in my 20s, I have less time than everybody else. So you know what? I am going to do this my way and I'm going to do it fast because I knew how important having the first to market advantage would be, and that's what I was going for.

And despite have a lot of experts and they are, tell me otherwise, I chose my own path and I think you have to do that. If the... I think entrepreneurs have to realize that if everybody had the secret sauce and the absolute one way to do something, think how different everything would be. The fact that there's white space, even white space shows you that not everybody did have the right idea. So know which rules to follow, but more importantly, know which ones you are going to break.

Dan: That's exactly why this podcast exists. Thank you for sharing that. I love the fact that you share that because one of the challenges, one of the things that frustrate me, I mentor with brands from pre-revenue all the way up to multibillion dollars and it's always the same old, same old, cookie-cutter. Here's what my grandfather did type of strategy.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: And that doesn't work today and the notion that you would go to launch in a Whole Foods or a bunch of independents, which I am all for supporting. But the reality is, what it costs to support them, it costs so much more, and brands not even starting in their backyard. So I love the fact that you were able to do that. Now, more importantly, the fact that you had the wherewithal to understand whether or not you could handle the volume. That's the other big challenge I run into when I work with a brand. In other words, they don't look at Wal-Mart thinking, "Well okay, it's just a couple more pizzas a week." Instead of understanding what they're actual volume potential could be, and then they get in trouble, then they kicked out of the store.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: And that's a whole different conversation. Your thoughts?

Gail: Yeah, super true statement and it is a delicate dance. So just to level set, we did launch CAULIPOWER in 30 Whole Foods stores. That's where we launched. Today, we're in 25,000 stores. But we did launch in 30 Whole Foods stores and that was a proof of concept and that obviously worked really well. So yes, I did say yes to Wal-Mart, I thought we could do it. We started off slow. You don't have to start off in 4,000 stores. We started off at 700 I think.

Dan: Good.

Gail: So we started off slow, but which is not to say the tough... I think one of the toughest things about being an entrepreneur to your point, is knowing when to say no. And I did say no a lot of times and that was excruciating because entrepreneurs by their very nature are designed to say "Yes, yes, yes. We can do it. We can do it." I remember very early on, I had to say no to Costco because so many people had told me don't disappoint Costco. If you're going to say you're going to have it there, you have got to have it there. Just to go back to the earlier part of our conversation, that's the part... that's one rule that I listened to. I thought, "That makes perfect sense. I'm not going to ruin that relationship. I'm going to say no." And it was really, really hard, but I did and as hard as it was, I stand by it. It was the right decision. I felt like I could do Wal-Mart on a little hope and a prayer and luckily, I was right.

Dan: Well it does take a lot of courage to be able to say no. To your point-

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: Most people don't do that. Someone shines a-

Gail: Right.

Dan: Was that shiny object in front of... hey, would like to get your distribution in a store-

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: 3,000 miles away.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: Yeah, not a good idea.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: So I'm glad you're able to do that. So now the next big question, how did you get into the pizza category? Where did you start? Freezer space is very limited, highly competitive.

Gail: Daniel, I am so glad we didn't meet prior to CAULIPOWER because I didn't know that at the time.

Dan: Oh no, I would have helped you with it.

Gail: Yeah, that's true. I had no idea that it was the toughest part of the grocery store, not only that, but I also didn't know necessarily that it was filled with multibillion-dollar vertically integrated companies, super really didn't realize that. However, that ended up being somewhat of an advantage because it meant two things. One, it meant that the category and the freezer space was ripe for innovation. The pizza category had not been innovated in quite some time. I think the last time was in the 1980s when DiGiorno put cheese in the crust. That was probably the last innovation. So it was ripe, and the other thing I think having such a dramatic difference in the category between us and everybody else was that it created this environment and this ecosystem where people, retailers and brokers, and buyers would literally be cheering us on.

They'd be sending me little notes like, "Hey, you should do it like this." I thought, "Oh my god, there's a whole universe of people who like to cheer on the David." Do you know?

Dan: Sure.

Gail: Who don't always root for the Goliath. Now, not everybody, but enough where it made a palpable difference and I'm so incredibly grateful to those people and I have the top of mind everywhere I go and I am incredibly grateful.

Dan: I'm glad you shared that because this is exactly where I wanted to have this conversation with you. A little brand that takes on the world and just so that people understand, like you said, a lot of big money. Those brands, some of them pay a lot of money for that space.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: It's their space, you do not touch it. Same as in the snack aisle, et cetera.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: Extremely competitive. So the fact-

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: You're going to break into that, that's great.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: So what did you do? I mean, how did you tell your story? What was your... because I assume you didn't have huge deep pockets to buy yourself on the shelf.

Gail: No I did not. I had the opposite of whatever that was. I did exactly what you just articulated. I told my story and I went on every single sales call. No sale happen... I mean, not as much anymore obviously because we're much bigger, but in the early years, I went on every single sales call and I knew my role. I didn't get too involved in some of the things that I shouldn't be involved with because I would just muck it up. But I told my story and I made the... and in doing so, I made the retailer, the buyer care about CAULIPOWER. Because what they saw in me was a passion behind the brand, and as much money as those big companies have, what they don't have is some crazy curly-haired woman saying... exuding passion and that was everything.

They knew that if they could somehow bottle that and if we kept our promise in marketing, which we did in telling that story and sharing that story, that we would really increase the consumer base and that's exactly what we did.

Dan: Thank you for sharing that. This is exactly where I like to start with every brand. So one step further, how did you identify the customer that buys your product, and the reason I ask this question Gail is because a lot of the "experts" skip over this, and here's why. Retail's pay to play. It's all about how much money can you spend on slotting and stuff like that.

Gail: Right.

Dan: What I do is I help brands understand that the value of the customer, the unique customer that you drive into the store is far more valuable than any customer that's in their store.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: And when they buy your product because it's a premium product, et cetera, then buy other premium products. The point being is-

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: That your customer is far more valuable at checkout and driving traffic, et cetera. So that is in my opinion, the single greatest asset you and every brand like you has as opposed to negotiating against sliding and other fees and stuff like that.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: So how do you leverage that if you do? And if you don't, let's talk about it.

Gail: Yeah. What a fantastic articulation of the-

Dan: Thanks.

Gail: Opportunity there. I completely agree with you and to perfectly honest, I didn't do that as much early on because I didn't really understand it. I mean, literally, I would go to these meetings and I would share my story and the passion, but even the language that the industry uses is so... just to try and learn the... I left meetings I'm like, "What the hell were we talking about? Did we just make that? I mean, did we just win that business? Because I think we did, but I'm not entirely sure because I didn't understand half of what they were talking about." I understand a lot more these days, but that was early on. But the point is we do bring a valuable customer and we also bring an engaged customer and that is something that is also really important. People share our... people share product pictures all the time, which is great.

The unique thing about CAULIPOWER, which I am really proud of, people share our boxes. People share... they are proud of the brand. I can't tell you what I think to differentiate us so much is that people tell us all the time, "I love your brand." Many say, "I love your pizza. I love your chicken tenders. I love your [inaudible 00:26:32]" People say that too of course, and I'm thrilled they do, but as someone who comes from marketing far more, I have rarely ever heard somebody... if we're another brand says, "I love your brand." That is not the customer speak. That is not consumer speak and they feel really good about being in our community and they believe in our mission and they want to see that come out. They're so engaged in it that they go to the store managers, many of them did and say, "Hey, we want you to carry CAULIPOWER."

I did this thing very early on and I forgot it actually. I just remembered where we posted a prefilled out request form with our distributor code numbers. So people were printing it out and handing it to the manager so that they knew exactly what to order, here's the code and it was great. We got started getting accepted into so many stores because people wanted it and they wanted to see us succeed and that was amazing.

Dan: Love that story. This is what I hope all brands learn, and this is what we can talk about a lot on the podcast. The point being is that your community is the single greatest asset that you have.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: More so than the pizza, the building, the whatever else.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: If you can leverage and rally that community around you, I love the fact that you were able to help them drive traffic in the store. That's what I talk about all the time. In fact, that's how I would say that you future proof your brand by focusing on the community and then being able to use that community to drive sales. So now, you could probably even go into a retailer and say, "You know what? I'm not paying slotting. I'm not going to do some of the things other brands would do because my community is so strongly behind me." Do you leverage strategies like that?

Gail: Yeah definitely. Early on, I had no choice. I had no money. So I had to do that. I also, interesting for your female-owned brands out there because the representation in the store is not as strong, some retailers, if you can go through the accreditation process, which is really hard to be a female-owned business, then you can show that certification to a number of retailers and they will either give you a break on slotting or will wipe it out altogether.

Dan: Good, good, good. Well, that's good to hear and it's again, being resourceful. So going back to where we talked about. I know we have a limited amount of time and I know we [inaudible 00:29:26] chance to talk before, but I always ask my guest if there was a specific bottleneck that I can help you solve that you'd like to talk about.

Gail: So many.

Dan: I'm game and we can do this again later too, but no.

Gail: I would say the current challenge I think is that in the time of COVID, we are a brand, to our earlier point, that was built on consumer engagement. We would show up at festivals. We would have a truck. We would show up at conferences and we would... we know that when people try our products, they become a customer. So what happens in a world where you can't do that? And you can't have a truck. You cannot... there are no festivals, there are no conferences and that's been really hard, especially when your brand that's encouraging trial. So we have really upped our coupon game if you will. We have tried to give out free products or your discounted product so that people could try us and that's really the only thing that you can do that I... that we've been able to really get our arms around during this time. But I think the challenges associated with trial is really hard for everybody right now.

Dan: Which let me say that you have a great start and this is what I recommend always. By the way, I'm a category management expert by trade and so I help with trade marketing and I've niched down into really focusing on that. How to help you maximize your trade markings, et cetera. Because I know we didn't get a chance to talk beforehand, but the point is this, it's all about the consumer. So if you can focus on the consumer, build a community around your consumer-

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: Then you can leverage that community to grow and expand your consumer base, and as you've already said, drive sales into the store.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: Now, specifically what you're talking about, we're talking about trade marketing. How do you get a new customer to try your brand, but yet not spend a ton of money on things that don't make any difference?

Gail: Right.

Dan: Because most trade spending's wasted.

Gail: Right.

Dan: So what I'd recommend is use this time that you have to really get to understand your core customer, your ideal customer the same way you would a good friend, the same way that you'd have a conversation with your kids.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: Then leverage that, bake that into your selling story so that when you're going to the retailer, not only hey I got a great product, I got cool hair, et cetera. But you also talk about how does a consumer shop your category? Plant-based is the most confusing. None of the databases Gail, are designed around the way that your customer shops a store.

Gail: Yeah. True.

Dan: That's my secret sauce. So helping you understand that, leveraging those insights because I know for a fact that plant-based is driving sustainable sales across every category. While the mainstream brands, including the pizzas we talked about earlier, are flat or declining. So you have a significant competitive advantage. So the retailers want three things, more traffic in their store, a reasonable profit in the category, and competitive advantage. So with that in the back of your mind, how can you use those insights that you get from your community and leverage that at retail one. And then two, when you're talking about trade spending, promotion, slotting, all that other stuff, if you can reward me as a customer outside of traditional retail, then I will... I mean, let me put this way if I go into the store and I plan on buying CAULIPOWER when I go there and you gave me a great coupon. Well I got a deal and that's great for me, but it's not great for you because it doesn't address the fundamental thing you're trying to do is get new trials, new customers, right?

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: So if you can develop me as a customer offline, online rather-

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: And then have me share... if I share this with someone else then you give me something-

Gail: Right, right.

Dan: But then also give me a reward for being part of this loyal community, this tribe, this fan base-

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: That is unique and different than you would give someone at the store.

Gail: I understand.

Dan: And then because I'm going to spend so much time talking about how great you are and your brand is, other people are going to hear me and they're going to want to be a part of this group and that's how you expand your pond. Then when you take those stories back to the retail with everything else we've talked about and you align that with how customers shop the category with the things they buy. Now you got a robust story that you can share with a retailer and by the way when you're talking about your products, what are the other products people buy when they buy your products? Why did they choose your brand over another brand? What does the market basket look like when they're ready to leave the store? So focus on the market basket community and then build your community like that. Does that make sense?

Gail: It makes perfect sense and Daniel, I have to say I've done a couple of podcasts during this pandemic and I don't think I've ever had anyone give me free advice, which is really nice. I'm so appreciative, thank you.

Dan: Oh, you're welcome. Yeah. No, listen to other episodes because I do stuff like this all the time. It's-

Gail: Yeah. Absolutely.

Dan: Become one of the biggest most popular segments in the show and-

Gail: It's amazing.

Dan: Now that we've got... well thank you for saying that and please share it and let others know.

Gail: Oh I will. I definitely will.

Dan: Bottom line is I want to help. My mission is to make our healthy way of life more accessible by helping you get your products in my store shelves and into the hands of more shoppers including online. And the way I do that is by helping you thrive, and I think of you Gail, as the tidal wave... excuse me, like the ripple in the pond, okay?

Gail: Okay.

Dan: Now you're kind of the larger tidal wave you might see at a Kroger and you're getting closer to the Wal-Mart. Actually, you're further along, I should say. But in terms of driving that trend-

Gail: Yeah, yeah.

Dan: And the challenges I've done so work with the Plant-Based Food Association, other plant-based brands, et cetera, is that retailers don't understand your consumer. They don't understand how your consumer shops. And so when they look at you, you got to let them know that you're not a commodity like all the other stuff in the freezer-

Gail: Right. Right.

Dan: You've got to let them know what's unique about your customers. So in terms of educating... every chance you get in front of a retailer, or a customer-

Gail: Yep.

Dan: Needs to be focused on education, your story.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: And if you can get everyone to tell your story in the exact same passion, everything as you do, then you're ahead of the game which you are so much further ahead than most brands. So leverage what you're doing and focus on that community and by the way, got some great strategies that I talk to brands about, about how you can get insights that you can even go further at retail with.

Gail: I love that.

Dan: In other words, if you were to reach out to a shopper insights company, they're going to tell who the generic customer is.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: They're going to say the [inaudible 00:36:33] consumer, someone who eats a couple of salads and goes for a walk. In our world. That's not true.

Gail: Right.

Dan: So they don't understand what's unique about that gluten-free consumer, and I talk a lot about that on the show. How why even the slightest bit of gluten can screw them up. So why does that matter? Why is that important? And if you can help people understand... people don't think about it, gluten is in everything, gravies and ice creams and stuff like that.

Gail: Right.

Dan: So it's about building this awareness and so again, leverage your community to help you with that engagement, help... have them encourage them to help future proof your brand. And at that point, then as you said earlier, pull strategy versus the push strategy. Push strategy is where you get out your checkbook and pay for slotting and stuff. The pull strategy, what you're doing, inviting your customers to go into stores and ask for your product. That's how you become a big dominating brand, et cetera.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: Back to what I said earlier, your go-to-market strategy should be every bit as innovative and disruptive as the ingredients in your package. As long as you stick with that and focus on those things, the sky's the limit. So do you have any other questions for me?

Gail: Oh, that was awesome. I took lots of mental notes that as soon as we're done, I'm going to scribble down here. I love it. Thank you. That's-

Dan: No, you're welcome.

Gail: Very generous of you. Yeah. Love it.

Dan: Reach out if you want to go deeper on any of this.

Gail: Oh yeah, I will.

Dan: [crosstalk 00:38:02] other podcast episodes and like I said, the trade management, that's something that I'm really focused on because so many brands are struggling right now. Let me frame it this way, 25% of our brand's gross sales are tied to their trade marketing, yet 70% of it is wasted or ineffective.

Gail: I agree with them.

Dan: So if I can help you get more runway, so I've got-

Gail: Yep.

Dan: Free trade promotion, ROI calculator on my website and I are really focused on it. I've got a weekly webinar series, so I'd like to invite you, and if you'd like to collaborate-

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: That would be cool. But the point is, not trying to sell anything, but the point is if I can help you succeed and help you inspire other brands, that's the win.

Gail: Oh that is the win, I would love that.

Dan: Thanks.

Gail: Thank you.

Dan: Any other parting thoughts? I know we're running up on the [crosstalk 00:38:47]

Gail: Well I guess maybe two.

Dan: Okay.

Gail: So one, in the spirit of what was just saying about encouraging trial, I do have a code for free product to your listeners, if that's okay.

Dan: Sure.

Gail: All you have to do is you can direct message us on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram @CAULIPOWER and you use the code name brand secrets, and we will give you a coupon for free product, any product that we make.

Dan: Love it, love it.

Gail: So that is one thing, I would love to do that. Your listeners, it would be our pleasure.

Dan: Thanks.

Gail: And then I guess my final thought would be if CAULIPOWER is an example of anything to people listening, I hope it is an example of what you can achieve when nobody tells you that you can't. So there will be those people, you can't listen to them and I didn't tell anybody what I was doing, I just did it. I think that really helped because nobody did tell me that I couldn't and made me go ever stronger to showing everybody that I could, and if I can do it, so can any of your listeners.

Dan: Love that. Great advice. Your father would be so proud of you.

Gail: I hope so.

Dan: Well he absolutely would be. The resourcefulness, let's frame it that way. I mean, this is what brands need to know. They need to... and the fact that you know enough to know that you need help, which the right kind of help and stuff.

Gail: Yeah.

Dan: So this has been a fantastic conversation. I'd love to continue it at another time if you ever like. You're always welcome to come on, but thank you so much for making time for me today.

Gail: I'm so appreciative, thank you so much. What a pleasure.

Dan: Thank you.

CAULIPOWER https://eatcaulipower.com/en/

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Until next time, this is Dan Lohman with Brand Secrets and Strategies where the focus is on empowering brands and raising the bar.