BRAND SECRETS AND STRATEGIES

PODCAST #205

Hello and thank you for joining us today. This is the Brand Secrets and Strategies Podcast #205

Welcome to the Brand Secrets and Strategies podcast where the focus is on empowering brands and raising the bar.

I’m your host Dan Lohman. This weekly show is dedicated to getting your brand on the shelf and keeping it there.

Get ready to learn actionable insights and strategic solutions to grow your brand and save you valuable time and money.

LETS ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES AND GET STARTED!

Dan: Hi, Matthew, thank you for coming on today. Could you please start by telling us a little bit about yourself and your journey to where you're at today?

Matt: Sure. Well, thanks for having me on it's a great honor to be here now and a privilege. So I really appreciate that. Uh, you know, it was quite a journey to get where I am today as being a partner in an amazing brand called Cha's organics. Um, I've been in the health food industry for probably over 20 years, doing various things from food service to sales, to running a grocery store, to running my own grocery store. But, uh, it was when I was with a brand that, um, I think I was a sales manager with Hain, celestial Canada, actually at the time. And it was walking the show floor and I happened to stumble upon a booth that had, um, all kinds of organic and fair trade products from Sri Lanka, which is where my mom and dad immigrated from. And, uh, it was a gentleman named Tanika Carerra.

Matt: Who's the founder of the company, uh, with his wife, Marie Smith. And, uh, I think the first words out of my mouth to him were, wow, this is like, you're doing my dream job. This is amazing. And, uh, we had an instant connection. We became really, um, kind of best friends. And, uh, I kept saying one day I'm going to work for this company. And he kept saying, you know, one day you're going to be a partner in this company. And, uh, around 2015, that was with, uh, Manitoba harvest hemp foods. And from there was able to make the leap over to Chad's organics and be a partner in the brand. And I saw this, um, kind of a fledgling brand that I saw huge potential in and also was very dear to my heart being products from Sri Lanka. And, um, you know, in, in the nineties when I was a young man, I really wanted to reconnect with my roots.

Matt: And I went to Sri Lanka and ever since I came back, there was something inside me that wanted to help the people of that country. Um, and I was searching for ways to do that. And, uh, so this was a natural fit for me and to make it even deeper, I mean, it goes way back to this is, you know, it's pretty deep actually, but this goes back to like even my ancestors from like the 15 hundreds of the 16 hundreds involved in the cinnamon spice trade. Um, and it was never really done in a fair way though. Cinnamon true cinnamon was harvested in Sri Lanka and traded around the world. Um, but it was always done at the exploitation of farmers. So in part of me being able to be involved in the cinnamon trade, in an organic, sustainable regenerative and fair trade way that empowers these farmers really, um, ties me back full circle to some of my ancestries. And, uh, it was really meaningful for me. Actually.

Dan: That's a great story. I love how you've connected the dots and brought everything back together. So back up a little bit, when you worked for a grocery store, was it a natural grocery store?

Matt: Yeah, so we used to work for a small, um, independent, uh, health food store called harmony whole foods. So was just outside of Toronto, uh, Jennifer Grant who used to run the store. She's an amazing lady. And she has been a powerhouse in the Canadian health food industry for a long time. And, uh, I was after I closed my own grocery store, which was downtown golf where I live golf, Ontario. Uh, I was searching for, um, some work too, something to keep me in the health food industry. And, uh, I was able to work there as a grocery manager for, I think about three years actually.

Dan: Gotcha. So we have that in common and the reason that matters, and then we'll tie back to this later is when you're trying to understand the consumer that buys your product, that understands the difference of your product, why this matters. And we'll get into this really deep, like I said, after a little bit, but it's that consumer is very different than the consumer that goes to a mainstream retailers and buys the generic or the commoditized or synthetic or whatever. Right. And so, um, that's critically important as we have this under there's a conversation because you've got something to announce that I want to look forward to. But as we're beginning to dig into this, the fact that you've got those deep roots in the industry, understanding what the customers look like, and then in addition to what you're doing with where you're at now. So when you work for Hayne, what did you do for them?

Matt: I was an Ontario sales manager for independent in the natural channel.

Dan: Okay. Okay. And then at expo West, I mean, I'm sorry, the brand that you did, Manitoba harvest. So what did you do for them?

Matt: I was their Eastern Canadian sales manager, so I managed all the business in Eastern Canada.

Dan: So you have a really good understanding of sales, in that section and in Canada. So really quickly, what unique about Canada? How would you define that versus other places that you try to sell into?

Matt: Well, so, you know, a long time ago, he used to work with a brokerage as well, and that would have to work with a lot of American sales managers as well. And the one big difference I find with Canada and the US is that we're a very much, well, we're a much smaller population, first of all. But also we don't have the density of population that the US has like even that 10% of the US population we're spread out in this thin line, across the border predominantly of Canada and the rest of Canada is quite rural. Um, so I think one of them, one of the most difficult things about working with Canada is that you have this large spread out the population and each region can have its own differences across the whole country. And you don't have these population densities that make, um, sales a lot easier to kind of work with, you know, and, and, you know, visiting retailers or something, it's all very spread out.

Dan: Well, one of the things I am finding as I, as I do projects and work with Canadian companies, um, actually the way, first of all, the way that we got connected is I did a presentation for the Canadian organic trade association. So thank you all. Thank you. I appreciate that. And by the way, I've got the link and I'll put that on my website, but that is that you know, developing those relationships with Canadian companies is really something I'm very interested in doing. And the reason that matters is that you have as a country, from my perspective, that authenticity, that is at the core at the root of natural. And what I'm getting at is that a lot of the natural companies, a lot of the natural retailers and brands have really gotten more mainstream. They're more focused on the big business and, and what I would call wall street versus main street.

Dan: Whereas the Canadian organizations that I've been dealing with or had the privilege to talk to, et cetera, they seem to be more focused on the roots of natural the consumer. And that's why, where I'm going with all this. So you understand who the consumer is as a retailer, you understand who the consumer is because your population, the density, the kind of people that are in Canada, it's very different in terms of the the atmosphere, the feel, the authenticity. And the other thing I love about what the people I've talked to them about Canada is that it's a lot more laid back. So I live in Colorado, which is close, you know, boulders up the street. And that's the kind of vibe that I get when I go to Boulder has where you've got people that are very authentic, that are very, you know, died in the wool. This is organic. I mean, it is a religion up there and, and that's what is so great about our industry. And when I go to other States, other regions, et cetera, you don't feel that. So we don't want to celebrate the fact that you guys have that, that connection. So thank you for sharing all that. So how did you, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Matt: I just want to say that's really great. I am like, I, I do have a deep respect for the Canadian shopper in a way that they're very savvy into organics and, and really, um, enjoy the fact that there's a deeper connection I find in Canada because maybe it's rural nature, for the most part, there's a deeper connection to the farm. So, um, people really appreciate seeing, you know, products that are grown in an organic, sustainable way. So it's very well done.

Dan: Thank you for bringing that up. And actually, I'm glad you did, because one of the things that I wanted to mention and I'm going to is in that presentation that I gave, I was able to highlight the differences between the Canadian organic shopper and the U S organic shopper. And they're stark. They're actually quite, they're quite a bit different than, than, than what I would have expected. And the point being is that the Canadian Canadian, organic consumer is more loyal, more trusting of organic products. Whereas us organic shopper is less trusting. And the reason that matters is that you get the value of it. You understand and appreciate the value of organic. So what I'm getting at is this, and I've made this, this is one of my biggest frustrations in our industry is I don't think we do a good enough job celebrating the quality of the food.

Dan: So why this matters. We talked about this right before I hit the record button. There's a myth out there. That price is the only thing that matters. That's not true. The reality is that customers want quality. Then what quality they can trust on a relearn all the time. And so the analogy that I give is that if I go eat the generic bread, I'm hungry before I finish eating it. If I eat the best mainstream bread, I may be satiated for three or four hours. However, if I am what I eat and I eat the best bread knit, organic bread that has all the nutrients in my body needs, I am satiated longer. Therefore, even though I pay a few pennies at shelf more for the product, the products satiates me longer, I then, therefore, eat less of it. In addition to that, I have fewer needs for other types of processed foods. I mean, they don't, they don't sustain you. And as I eat more organic food than products, smell food, smells better. Food tastes better. Food tastes sweeter, naturally, et cetera. There are so many wonderful things about it. And we're going to get into Virginia to vent a little bit, which really takes it to the next level and beyond. So

Matt: Like the bed organic foods is that you know, why people buy it is yes, it's healthier for you. It has more nutrition has better flavor. But I think also, um, I don't know if this is more true for the Canadian shopper, but I think Canadian shoppers also want to support organic because they know that it helps the environment and makes our world a better place as well. Do you know? So I think that's commonly overlooked when it comes to why people buy organic. I don't necessarily just buy organic foods because I know it's healthy for me. I mean, that's, that's great. I'm happy about that. But I also buy organic food because I know that there are fewer chemicals being used. It's grown in a sustainable way. It's doing better things for the environment. It's leaving that soil, um, in a, in a better state than an amount of cultured, uh, conventional crop. And that goes to the regenerative aspect of it. Like you can grow on those, on that land over and over again. It will still be fertile and get richer and richer as she, as you harvest from it.

Dan: I'm so glad you shared that because that's exactly where I wanted to go. So thank you. Yeah. So I mean, a little bit earlier than we were hoping, but we're going to come back to the brand and the company, et cetera in a minute, but to your point. Yes. And that's one of the things that I love about nature. That's one of the things, you know, we were talking about is where we're from, et cetera. When I talked to people in Boulder, people that are ingrained in this society, in this, in this way of thinking this religion, almost they understand that and they appreciate that. And they know that they're getting a lot of quality, a lot of value, a lot more nutrients, the challenges, big businesses. No, no, no, no. We need to use pesticides and herbicides and all that bad stuff. Well, if you are what you eat then do you really want that in your body?

Dan: And so another analogy that I think I made during that webinar, and again, I'll put a link to it on the actually it's on the event page of my website for anyone else to listen to it. But any, uh, one of the other analogies I made is if you think about the wine connoisseur, and what's the difference between a $2 bottle of wine and the $3,000 bottle of wine, they talk about the nuances and the differences between the flavors because of the ground, because of the grapes, because of the water, because of the, all that other stuff. And people go out of the way, spend tons of money to buy super-premium wines that have that purity. And yet we have to eat every day. I mean, this is, you know, this is how we sustain ourselves. And yet we don't put the same effort and energy into understanding the foods that we eat, et cetera.

Dan: So if we eat food, that's watered by rain that has pollutant Senate. That's not good because we, we ingest that. If we put a process, if we put pesticides on crops, we're getting a little bit of that in our food. So to your point, it is that difference at nuance, but more importantly, it's how do we help sustain not only ourselves, but we're sustaining the land that we're growing on. We're making the crops less rich, less drought-resistant. In fact, we get into this into the weeds. I was telling you that, uh, right before this podcast, I was able to interview, we're getting with Patagonia provisions and what we were talking about, we were getting into the weeds about origins, native, organic. And what's cool about that is that is it protects the soil in such a way where all the droughts, et cetera, that we had years ago would not have negatively impacted the crops, the ground, et cetera, had they been using regenerative agriculture? There are so many great benefits to it. So getting back to what you're saying, the notion that Canadian consumers understand that, appreciate that go out of their way to buy what we would call local. I mean, that's sort of a big thing here, but understanding the benefits of organic. So what are your thoughts around that and what would you like to add?

Matt: So I would like to add something in the SOC that in organic agriculture, that's where we find a lot of heirloom varieties that have those nuanced flavors. When you're that whole wine analogy that you were using with the nuanced flavors, um, you know, you can go to the conventional grocery store and buy a tomato, and that's going to be the same tasting tomato that you're going to get on the other side of the country. Whereas when you get into organic agriculture, a lot of times you're dealing with smaller farms, smaller producers that you might get, you know, at your farmer's market or your local health food store. Um, and they're growing, uh, heirloom varieties that, uh, look different, uh, taste different. And they're more, uh, biologically adapted to that regional area due to the local climates and stuff too. So, um, there's just so much, that's tied into the whole regenerative nature of organic agriculture where, um, even the varieties that you're growing have certain adaptations that create different flavor profiles and create all those different nuances that you were talking about. I just thought that was really interesting. I'd like to tie that, that into the heirloom varieties. Yeah.

Dan: Well, thank you for sharing that. I'd go one step further as to say, I mean, that's a love that fact that you brought that up, but I'd go one step further to say that if you eat something that is organic, something that is really clean, the clean label doesn't really mean anything, but eat something that's really clean in terms of the way it's produced, et cetera, the flavor profiles are so different, so robust. Yeah. And if you, for example, a Roma tomato, and that's something that, I mean, I really liked those, but if you eat them, some of them that you'd find at the grocery store, the mainstream version, that's grown traditional with pesticides and herbicides and stuff like that. There really is any taste to it. But if you eat something that comes right out of the ground that you got at the farmer's market or something like that, they're very tasty.

Matt: So tasty time difference from when it's picked to when you're eating it too is shortened. And so the vibrancy of the energy of the nutrition, everything is just a lot higher. I find in, in those heirlooms, you know, less-trafficked products, you know, that just get from the farm, right to your table in a much shorter time period. And then, uh, the flavors, it just, you know, they're outstanding

Dan: On that note. One of the earlier podcasts, I was just thinking about that Sawyer saying it, we talked to, I talked to a company with Oregon, dry tech, and they have a technology where they can actually give a longer shelf life to organic products. It's amazing technology. And it's, it's really cool that people go back and listen to it. But the point is that organic food should spoil real food, should swell. And the food of the preservatives we have and stuff like that, you know, that's not what we want, but their technology allows you to take something that should spoil, you know, immediately and preserve it. And it's in its cleanest best state without taking out any of the nutrients. It's unbelievably cool. Whole other conversation. Yeah. I mean, I'll have to link to it, but in fact, I'll have to get those guys involved in this, this, this whole promotion thing for the podcast and stuff. [inaudible] talking about regenerative organic. So thank you for sharing that. So now let's talk about how did you get started with the company? How did they convince you to come on? What do you do for them?

Matt: Well, you know, I, I recognize that there was this fledgling company and what they needed was some expertise in sales. So the way that we kind of break down our responsibilities, uh, Maurice may who's, China's, uh, wife, she does more of the marketing and admin and, um, label design, that kind of thing. Uh, Chaunika does more of the supply chain, uh, management. And then I do all of the sales. So what I recognized was that there was, um, a great company, but they were missing kind of an integral part of a successful company is having some expertise in sales and not to say that they were doing a terrible job with sales. They were doing great actually for a small company and we're still a small company, but I just recognize that if I came on board, I can really bring something to the table that they needed, which was more outreach and sales and more expertise in sales.

Matt: So I didn't really have to do much convincing. It was a pretty natural fit. We wanted to join forces and we want it to be a strong partnership. And, um, I can honestly say after five years now, we're really starting to get to some of those tipping points that I was looking to do. I wanted to take this company and make it. So when you walk into this independent health food store, right now, you'd see our brand in four or five different categories that we're strong in and we're actually reaching those points now. So it's really great to see that. Yeah,

Dan: What's cool about this is, you know, talking about a small company is that you realize you acknowledge that you don't know everything. And one of the biggest challenges Matthew that I run into in this industry is that someone starts putting together a product and they start making it and they don't think about what does it take to, you know, about reaching out and finding someone else? In fact, one of the more recent, uh, webinars I did was about how to bring in a fractional, somebody, you CEO, a category manager, et cetera, to help give you those extra insights and help really rocket yourselves point bang is that you don't know what you don't know. And if you can surround yourself with the right kind of people that can help you amplify that. So now that you're doing that, how are sales, how are things going with the company?

Matt: Uh, well, very well, I especially, um, I mean, through the COVID times, we've actually been up over 80% in sales, but we've, uh, added, I'd say about 40%, 50% on average sales every year. And having new products really helps with that too. Uh, and to your point about, uh, uh, you don't know what you don't know. I think that's something that we really, you know, we embrace is that we're never going to know everything, right? So we have to talk to people who do have expertise in certain areas where we don't have the expertise and, and learn from them and take those tidbits of knowledge and, and how do we utilize them to make us better. Uh, and so, you know, it's like rowing a boat when we all grow as a team in the same direction, we can get there a lot faster, right? So that's the kind of perspective that we do is constant improvement and getting to a better point together as a team. And how do we do that? How do we accomplish it?

Dan: I love that analogy. In fact, actually on that note, one of the reasons I started kind of getting into this, doing the stuff that I'm doing now, the podcast, the YouTube video, the webinars, and all the articles, et cetera, is because I wrote an article about how a brand like yours can better manage their broker partner. And I mean, they're good brokers, bad brokers, good mechanics, bad mechanics, and et cetera. But the point being though the point of the article was that you need to keep your hand

Dan: Firmly on the rudder of your ship as a brand. And when you hire a broker or someone else, an external resource, whatever they need, you need to help leverage them to help you execute at the level you need to be rather than just kind of blindly handing the case to them. And I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that a lot of brands make. So how do you leverage all those resources around you hold them accountable and drive them forward?

Matt: Yeah, so that's a really tricky question. I've been a broker rep myself. So I stand with the brokering world very well. Uh, and I never, um, uh, decrease the importance of a broker. Cause I think they've been very useful. They can be very useful, but as I said, good mechanics is bad mechanics. And I think the worst thing you can do is just, uh, bond blindly, let somebody run with your brand because now they become the face of your brand. So basically when, when I look at my broker, when we only use a broker in Western Canada right now, um, and they've been doing fantastic for us, but, um, I, what I tend to do is try to make them know everything I know and try to make them, uh, you know, the positive face of our brand. So how do I do that? Um, we have a video it's about a half-hour long video that, uh, is very, you've seen it, but it's very organic and kind of run its nature, but it really encapsulates who we are as a brand.

Matt: So the first thing I do is I ask them to watch that. And once people do watch that, it's a thing like we grow on you, you know what I mean? We grow into you a little bit when you watch that video. Um, so I also do trainings with them. So I go to their head office and they'll do a training with the whole sales staff. And when I say training, it's not just me standing there with, you know, a PowerPoint, it's a, you know, taste our products and here are some products take them home and use them because that's another thing with our products is that they're so high quality and the flavor profiles are so great. If you're a foodie and I find the health food world is kind of full of foodies. Um, uh, you will notice a difference and you'll, you'll use that coconut milk and you'll be like, wow, that's, that's the best coconut milk I've ever used in my life, or you'll use our young jackfruit and it's the best quality young jackfruit you're going to find.

Matt: So, and that's something that we do as a brand too, is to make sure that when we launch a product, you know, we make sure that we're, you know, the gold standard in that category. So what I do is get them on board with enjoying our products in their own kitchen, uh, educating them on who we are and then making them part of our tribe so that they go out there and sell the way we would sell. And that's, um, that to me is really important. And thank goodness, the broker that I work with at West, um, it was a very natural fit for us. It wasn't, um, it was, it was a group of people that I find it was easy to. It was easy for them to understand who we are and what we're doing. And also because we work with them very on a very regular basis. So even though they're on the other side of the country, I try to, you know, be there as much as I can.

Dan: Thank you for sharing. In fact, this is exactly what I tell people they need to do. So you are the model of what I've been preaching all those years,

Matt: So good it right.

Dan: But that's, and the reason this matters is that you've got that relationship. You're spending time with him. So pros and cons, you know, I worked for Kimberly Clark for several years. We had a direct sales force. We were incented by the same company. We went to the sales meetings, the same trainings, we're on the same page. Well, when they went to a broker model and in an indirect model, well that same broker had to call in the same number of skews, do all the same work that our people were doing ahead it beforehand. But yet, in addition to that, they called our every other, you know, several other brands or the point is that if you don't, they don't understand your company as well as you do, then they're not communicating the value of your company the same way as you do. And this is where a lot of brands fail.

Dan: This is most brands Achilles' heel. So the fact that you're sharing your product with them, you tell them to take it home, you get them ingrained in it. You get them ingrained in the culture is great. This is a model that I would like to see every brand follows. And this is exactly why I keep saying you should never blindly hand your keys away to anyone. And again, it's not because brokers are good or bad or whatever. It's because you want to make sure that you have a good fit. If you were to hire someone like me, for example, and you just hired me off the internet, you didn't know anything about me. You're just, you know, I need you to do a project, but we hadn't had that time to build that connection. That relationship, as you would a good friend, and you don't get to know me then how are you going to get to steer me or manage me or make sure that I'm a good fit for the culture of the brand, et cetera.

Dan: And those are the things that I'm getting at. So that alone gives you an advantage. And as you move into the US or wherever, don't lose sight of that, take the time to make sure that those are the things that you're doing on a regular basis. This is exactly why I built a turf free turnkey sales story strategies course is to try to teach brands how to communicate the value of their product across our entire sales funnel. More importantly, how to get your external sales team ingrained in what you're doing. You're going to say something.

Matt: Yeah. I was going to say, um, you know, when it comes to choosing people are choosing your broker, choosing the sales rep. It's, you know, I, I view it as a very longterm relationship. I don't want to have people on board for a year and then say bye to them. Do you know? So you're, you're creating a longterm relationship. So when you're talking about, um, you know, me and you, uh, you know, if I were to hire you, it's like, if I were to hire somebody, the way I look at it is you're going to have a longterm relationship with you. So who you are as a person, like what you stand for and, and who you are, is more important than, than your actual knowledge about my products or any stuff I can teach you how to sell my products, but I can't make you the person that I was that I need you to be inside.

Matt: You know what I mean? That has kind of be there already a little bit. So yeah, that's the way I look at it. So if I can line with you, um, my broker as a group of people, and I think they're, you know, they're the type of people that I want representing me as far as being like, they're not pushy salespeople, or they're not, um, you know, uh, negative people, you know, there are a positive force. That's, that's the kind of people that I want to align with. And then I can teach you how to sell my product. I can talk about my products forever and you'll know everything about them, but how do I make sure that I'm, I want to have the right people on board because I'm creating these longterm relationships, be it a sales manager or a sales employee or broker. So I think that's a luckily for us, we've, we've found a great team of people who are well aligned with, and I think that's really important for brands to keep in mind

Dan: Good for you. Well, in the fact that you acknowledged that their success is your success and vice versa, and the fact that they understand they're, they're connected to you. It's not just hiring some outside firm. It's, they're part of what you're doing. So that gives you an incremental advantage over other brands, or there are companies. So thank you for sharing that. So you mentioned the video, I'm glad you brought it up. I was going to get in, is going to get to it eventually. Anyhow, that video is amazing. Why, what makes sure I put a link to it on the podcast show page, et cetera. So talk about the video because it really does. It really does draw you into the brand. It redefined you from just being an image on a package to being something a lot more

Matt: That's the whole point of the video actually is exactly what you just said. Um, and, um, we're really shocked and amazed at the power of that video and what it has done for us as a brand, even though it's like a half-hour long. And every bit of advice that we get from people making videos is kept it short, keep it simple. And you know, and that is great advice that we will be doing shorter versions that are more focused on individual products. That's kind of our SQL to our video would be, you know, a series of shorter ones as well. But, um, we're really amazed at what this video has done for us. It was a very low budget. It wasn't scripted, it wasn't rehearsed. It was very organic and raw in its nature. But I think that's, it's a quirky charm that kind of pulls people in is that it is very organic dealing with organic products.

Matt: So, um, how it came about is, you know, I was just basically, um, starting with the company and we were planning a trip to Sri Lanka. And, um, somehow, you know, it's not like we have a budget to do these things, but somehow we managed to create a budget at that point in time to fund a small video. And luckily we worked with another gentleman who was a Sri Lankan Canadian guy who was really interested in what we're doing as well. And he had a team of people in Sri Lanka that we can work with. So we paid for half of his flight and he was, and he flew down and we spent probably about three weeks touring the whole Island from farm to farm, to a facility, to the facility. Um, we did a number of things that are not even captured in that video, actually, that I wish we can, um, we should do something with, we did almost like I had to channel it.

Matt: So I grew up watching a lot of nature shows when I was a kid that was like a nature show lover. Uh, so I just channeled my best David Attenborough, you know, uh, mode. And I apparently did an okay job of it. And, um, yeah, it's, it's really done amazing for us. I use it in trainings with salespeople. I use it in trainings with grocery staff in stores. Um, I have it at the bottom of my emails, so people randomly watch it. Uh, we have LinkedIn our, uh, Facebook page. I don't know if we have a LinkedIn or Instagram, but, um, it's really amazing between us, between our YouTube site and our producer's YouTube site. It's got over a quarter-million views.

Dan: Wow. That's fantastic. Yeah, it's a great video and I love it because it really does do a great job of framing the why does this matter and connect all the dots. So thank you for sharing it. So make sure we put a link to it.

Matt: So just add one thing, you know, in, in North America, we can kind of go to a farm and we can see where our meat is produced, or our vegetables are produced, but literally sometimes we have no connection to how the spices are grown or where this coconut milk comes from. So the whole point of that video, just going back a little bit is to kind of build that bridge. You know, we don't grow coconuts in North America, so how do we go and see how the coconut is harvested, how it's made into coconut milk? You know, we don't grow turmeric and ginger here as much. So how do we, you know, how is that done? What does it look like? And what are those farmers' faces look like? And what does that farm in Sri Lanka look like the small producer that's, uh, creating amazing products, but that you can use to flavor and, you know, make this amazing, you know, flavorful dish, but you have no connection to those spices? So that was the whole point of that video is how do we build that bridge?

Dan: Well, and I'm glad you mentioned that because that's exactly where I was going to go. Is that with us, is that when you're talking about the food, I mean, knowing where your food comes from a part of this industry, this, this, you know, co keep calling it a religion almost is that those of us that are in this industry that really gets it are the ones that are going to go out of the way to spend a premium for products that provide excellent value, an extremely good value like you're talking about? And the reason that matters is that a big piece of that is understanding where your food comes from. One of the biggest challenges. I think this industry faces any industry, all food is that people don't really understand where their food comes from. I mean, outside of a grocery store, which doesn't really mean anything. And so for you to take me to the place where the food is being produced, I love that, but let's go one step further. So you know what, I've had several brands on the podcast

Dan: Where we've talked about this, there's a big difference between a cow that only eats grass, as opposed to a cow that's fed stuff that account's not made to eat. And then a cow that eats has antibiotics or not antibiotics, whatever, whether you're vegan or not. It, you know, the way the plants are cultivated, the reason this matters again, because if you are what you eat and what you matter. So now going back to the video, the fact that you're able to take me to Srilanka and you're able to introduce me to the farmer and show me how the food's made. So unlike most people, you know, I, the, cinnamon comes from the spice aisle at the store, right. That's where they harvest it. Just kidding, but, you know, what does that mean? And why is that important? So talk a little bit about that. Cause you were also talking about the efficacy of the w the relationship between the brand and the farmer with your ancestors, way back, you were talking about how people were exploited. So why does that matter? How do, knowing who the farmer is and how you're helping to support them and being fair and honest and decent and giving them what they need to survive and to support you? Why is that all matter to you?

Matt: So there's something that is important that you said a little while ago when you said there's almost a religious nature to our industry and the health food channel and what we do. Um, we consider ourselves in a, in a lot of ways, like a food movement, not necessarily just a brand with products. So what I mean by that is, you know, we don't necessarily just go into a category because it's a successful category. We get products that have meaning behind them and something that we know that we can do well. So, um, it's still different that way. Um, so being a food movement is, is, um, is important to us. And what we do is when we do a product, when we launch a product, uh, is like, how can we make this product better for the world and better for people? So the nature of how things are grown and how things are done is, is really important to us.

Matt: And even our packaging is really important to us. So one thing, the reason why these farmers, um, need help is that when you get into conventional farming, you can have, you know, big monoculture farms with lots of chemicals and, and the smaller farmers that are producing heirloom products, high-quality products in an organic natural way that helps the world. They can get lost in the whole market. So what happens is these farmer groups joined together so that they can become a stronger power and get their products to the market in a more effective way. So what we want to do is support those people and empower those people. So these farms are like two to five acres max there, and they grow, they have so much biodiversity on the farm that they grow food for their family. They might have some chickens, they might have some goats, uh, but then they're also growing, not Meg, turmeric pepper, and maybe a small patch of tea.

Matt: And it's the amount of biodiversity on these farms. That is really when you picture a North American farm, you picked your acres and, you know, long fields of, you know, something, but that's totally opposite of what these farmers do. So when you walk into these farms, it looks, they're actually called forest spice gardens because when you walk in, it actually looks like a forest there's tons of biodiversity around, and they use traditional growing methods that, um, date back thousands of years. So for example, one thing that they did was, um, uh, there was one of the farm leads that we were working with there. Um, he did this special thing where they got, um, the horns from a bowl that naturally fall off. Uh, they would fill it with a silica and then seal it. And then at a certain, uh, lunar cycle, they would bury that whole, those horns into the earth, um, leave it for months.

Matt: And then at a certain lunar cycle, they would dig that up and use the stuff from inside that, uh, Bullhorn to fertilize their crop and the farmers themselves, what they say when they take that, that fertilizer and put it on the crop. And they would use the smallest amount per acre. Like it was like something like five or six grams per like acre that's how, how potent the step was. But the farmers themselves swear when they use this stuff, their plants absolutely go bananas. So, you know, they have all these traditional methods and also heirloom varieties that, um, that should be preserved. And we don't want to, you know, a long time ago, when I went to Sri Lanka, there was a, uh, a university professor and he was telling me, you know, for a long time, we've used organic methods in the East. And the West was relying on chemicals.

Matt: And now the West is going organic and they're sending all their chemicals here. Right. And when they send the chemicals there, you know, sometimes there's no, uh, they don't have the same restrictions and the same guidelines and how to use it. So water gets, you know, you get poor water qualities and leading to people with kidney issues and, and health, you know, gets affected. So what we want to do is preserve and empower these organic farmers to grow their methods and, and build more farms that are organic. So we can switch that conventional farm over there to organic.

Dan: You know, I got into this, you reminded me of another podcast episode. I talked to, um, organic India about what they're doing and the same scenario where people would go in and salesmen would sell chemicals and fertilizers and pesticides, and try to get the farmers to use that. And it created drought and all sorts of problems within their environment. And they had the highest rate of suicides, uh, for farmers because they weren't able to produce for their family and

Dan: The whole another conversation. But my point is destroying the land in the process. And by now, going back to the traditions, long-held traditions, one of the things I think is great about what you're saying again, we're talking about going back to the wine analogy. If I get some, if I buy a product of spice or something like that, and it has other things grew around it, teas, and other kinds of spices, I would assume that that would change the flavor profile a little bit. Those are nuances is that's that in itself as innovative. And so you mentioned, you're talking about the way you do innovation, big brands when they do innovation. Unfortunately, it's more about how do they keep the line running so that they have the efficiencies in the back end, rather than thinking about innovation in terms of what customers want they think about how do they create innovation in terms of a new package, a new label, a new flavor, which really isn't true innovation at all. This is where innovation comes from. So let's go back to that for just a minute and talk about how you are able to leverage those insights. So stories those flavor profiles as you create new innovation.

Matt: Yeah. And innovation is really important to us. Like as a, as a brand that wants to be a leader in categories, we take innovation really like the most important thing we can do. So when we look at the category, I mean, if you look at coconut milk, which is our strongest category, there's tons of coconut milk out there. There's some that are really, really inexpensive. And they're all just, you know, you have your premium coconut milk, you have your cream, we have a light there, there really wasn't a lot of, of, uh, differentiation or innovation happening. So that's something that we looked at it. So we want to be that cutting edge kind of company. That's a leader in the category and creating new and exciting things for the category. So, you know, we were talking about, it said, you know, the kind of coconut milk category is actually kind of boring when you think about it, what can we do to liven it up and, and create more, uh, breadth of shelf space for us as a brand.

Matt: And we thought we have spices, we have coconut milk. So why don't we do spiced coconut milk? So we ended up doing lemongrass, ginger coconut milk, and a Curry and masala, coconut milk, and a, that was a new innovation that nobody had in the market. So what we do is, you know, when we look at the category, you know, it's, it's the efficiencies that we can get as a company is actually not even a thought when we're thinking of buffer, what we're going to launch. It's like, what, what can we excite this category with? What can we bring to this channel, this category that's going to make people go, wow, that's amazing? And how do we do it with the best quality and with ethical attributes to it? So we do things like upcycled packaging. We have a turmeric latte, uh, there are other turmeric lattes out there.

Matt: What makes ours different? So it's vegan. It doesn't have any sweetener in it. So because, you know, everybody has their own sweetener in their cupboards. We don't need to have somebody pay for sugar in the container when you have sugar in your pantry. But then with our packaging, I'll show you, we did a, an upcycled, uh, paper Candice. So what happens is, um, we work with a gentleman named [inaudible], who kind of heads, a lot of grassroots initiatives that we do. So this is a, uh, upcycled canister that's made from bulk teabags that would normally get thrown in the garbage. So the the paper from these bulk teabags gets harvested by a group of women. And, uh, they literally hand make every single one of these canisters and fur, and it gives them a livable wage. So they were normally working on a sugar cane plantation, for example, making like, I think it was roughly five to $10 us dollars a month with really hard work that has some danger associated with it too.

Matt: Whereas now they make a very livable wage making these canisters by hand for us. And it's something they can do at home. Like we have some footage of a mom making the canister and her, her daughter's reading a book learning to read right beside her while she's making the canisters. And it was, you know, it's a really amazing, powerful thing to see and know that you're changing lives with just packaging. So for us, it was a way of driving dollars that we could, we could drive to a big, huge corporation. That's making packaging that doesn't really make a lick of difference if they get us, our packaging is done with them or not. But it's life-changing for this family when they get this job to make her canisters for it. So, do something for us as being a triple bottom line company, believing that people planet and profit it's, how do we, how do we launch a product that meets all of those needs? And in the video, I mentioned how we have the, you know, the pyramid of corporate needs and the top is a, are the corporate needs. And we flip that upside down. So it's the grassroots people and farmers, and then the corporate needs are meeting them. So we flipped that whole corporate model upside down. Um, so that's how, you know, w kinda our perspective on how we launch new products and how we build our brand.

Dan: I love that. What a great story that is so fantastic. And I'm so thrilled that you shared that. Thank you. And one of the reasons this matters is, you know, kind of go back to what we said before is that traditional methods, you're doing it wrong because you're not thinking about what you need to be thinking about. It's all about how do you drive price and stuff like that. But wait a minute, I can put it in a plastic container for a lot less money who cares about the landfill, but the point is that that's what makes you natural, natural. And that's what sets brands like you apart. That's why I really wanted to have you on the podcast, because of the fact that you are thinking about all of that stuff and making sure that you're providing the living wage that you're giving back that it's, it's about more than just putting a product on a shelf. So, as you're talking about, you know, defining category, putting innovation in the category, yeah. A lot of brands are thinking about where can I find an opportunity to, to niche down or to build something that everyone's going to want to explore to the category. Yeah. However you want to put it, but the fact that you're not doing that, how successful has it been for you and then Y plus or minus does that work, or what recommendations would you have for another brand to go down that path?

Matt: Well, it is tricky to come up with innovations in categories because anything new to people, right. It takes them a while to grasp it. Right. So first of all, you have to kind of really give it time. You know, I find sometimes people will launch products or put a product on the shelf, even as a retailer and they don't give it enough time. Like as a, as a consumer, uh, you need to see it three or four times sometimes before you actually pick it up and buy it. Um, the first time you see it, you think, Oh, that's new, that's interesting. And you buy your regular stuff, but eventually kind of plants a seed in your head. And eventually, you reach and you buy that new product. So you have to give it time. That's, that's one thing that's really important, uh, because you know, we being organic, uh, you know, we can be fairly niche, right?

Matt: So sometimes we're talking about a very S a section of a big pie, and it's like, how do you, how do you grow that section? But how do you, um, appeal to all the people in those, in that section? So we kind of make sure that we took off all the boxes. So for example, when we do our coconut milk, we're going to BPA free cane, you know, click a check, I should say, uh, we're organic check. Uh, we donate 1% of the sales to the Ella to help protect wild elephants. So we have a strong, ethical side check it's fair trade check. So it's like, how do you check all those boxes? And so that there's actually no reason for somebody not reach to the shelf and buy your product. Price does play a part in it as well. Uh, we try to, it's not the most important product, uh, part of, uh, buying a product.

Matt: But I think there, you know, we like as a brand to be affordable to almost everybody. And although it's not the determining factor, it also, you know, we, even, if we can't every day on our shelf, price B will never be the cheapest, uh, product in the category. We're premium. We know that, but then how do we create sales and promotions that can reduce the price to make it more affordable for you to buy it at least four times a year? You can go into that store and see a really amazing aggressive Bryce that you can load upon. And then, you know, eventually, you'll come back if you're out of stock and you'll buy it at regular price as well. So innovation is really important to us because, in our categories, there are many players. So how do we differentiate ourselves? Uh, and we do that through quality, um, having an ethical side, and also creating some excitement in the categories.

Dan: Love it. So a couple of things that you said, putting a product on the shelf, unbelievably expensive. So if I put, if I want to come up with a new product and I'll put it on the shelf, typically it takes six months to really prove itself. That's about how long you've got, but to put it in the package, to get the packaging made, to get the thing in distributions that are horribly expensive. So it is, but here's what I was going to suggest. And this is why this matters. I think so much if you built a community outside of your brand, then you can reach out to your community and say, Hey, would you like coconut milk with these flavors in it? And, Oh, here's a sample. You could try it. And it doesn't need to be in the fancy packaging yet. The point being is that you can leverage that online community, or as you've said several times, your tribe to help you with innovation too.

Dan: The other cool thing is when we're talking about shopper marketing, in other words, how do consumers buy products? I don't just buy one product at the time. I buy a lot of products as I go through the store, how do I use the product? When I get at home, how do I celebrate with my friends? And then we talk about the market basket. The market basket is the sum total of what customers spend or what they buy when they check out at the shelf. The reason all of that matters is because if you can leverage your online community, help you drive sales, give you that those insights about sharper marketing, and help you understand what's in the market basket when they buy your product. That's another point of differentiation. So why does this all this matter? Well, there it matters is because you're giving retailers insights that they can't get elsewhere, which are so more, so much more valuable than a can top on a report that everyone else uses the same.

Dan: You, I make, this comment a lot, but the same can report that someone uses the sell motor oil is not going to help differentiate your organic baby food or spice or whatever. So one, and then two customers want to feel good about what they're buying. So we donate to different charities and I feel good about it. And I try to help out as much as I can, that kind of thing as a consumer. But the reality is I can't do a lot of the things that you can do. I can't pay a lady to make a container so that she can have a living wage at her home or pay a farmer in a third world country, or pay someone to have an organic farm and not pollute in on and on and on. Right? So my point is that as a consumer, I want to support mission-based brands.

Dan: And that's what unique about the natural. That's one of the things that we gravitate to. So I think, first of all, you should never, ever, ever, ever have to apologize for putting quality products in and never have to apologize for being ethical and being forward-thinking in terms of supporting the country, that the climate, that, all of that. And so you should get a premium for that. And my point is this if you can leverage all of those assets together and bake that into your selling story, and then help their retailer understand that when I'm buying your product, I'm also supporting a lot of mission-based causes, et cetera, that that align nicely with my values. And so that's one of the things that I'm trying to get this industry to do better. And that was a big part of that presentation that I shared. So thank you, for bringing that up again. So your thoughts, any ideas,

Matt: An important aspect of that? Um, because I think the the millennial shopper is far savvier on the ethical side of whatever product they're buying. I think that's, that's a really important aspect to them. So that's one thing to know that I can see this little icon, you know, it's got 1% for the elephants on there. That's great that I know that, but how do I, how do I see it? How does it touch me? How do I have that emotional connection to it? I think that's really important for people to create. So we do that through, um, through our Instagram or Facebook accounts where we can actually, you know, you can go onto our Facebook account and you can see farmers holding a sign saying, I grow turmeric for Cha's organics, or you can actually see, you know, we work with the Sri Lankan wildlife conservation society.

Matt: We can connect you directly to that group. So you can see some of the changes that they're making. Uh, you can see footage of people making. These are pictures of, of a, of a, of a mom making these with her daughter right beside it. So it's one thing to say, you do those things, but then, which is great. I'm, I'm proud of everybody to have that ethical side of their business. But I think what you have to do is make that connection more real to the person, the consumer that's using it. And everybody's online nowadays. So we have that instant access point where you can go and you can check it out. And people do. Like, I researched almost all my foods or almost anything I do. Now, I go online and I check it, I got to install some sliding patio doors. I've watched five YouTube tutorials on how to do it first.

Matt: So people, people always research things. And especially when, you know, when you give them social media connections, that encapsulate what you're doing and the difference that you're making to make that emotional connection at that point too, to somebody I think is extremely powerful. And it, it, it makes them an advocate of your brand and they want to tell the story. That's what I find is it's unbelievable to me when I do shows that people know so much about us and they actually tell all their friends about it and they become an advocate for us. And, uh, it always, you know, I find that always really surprising. I'm always pleasantly surprised and happy to have, like our consumers are really, you know, have a lot of allegiance to us because they've watched our video or they've, you know, follow us everywhere on social media. And they have, they see all the things that we're doing, right? So I think that's really important to make that connection.

Dan: That's true. That's true. Shopper loyalty. This is again, one of the things that I preach is that you want to convert your occasional and all those shoppers. And to your point, there's no better salesperson out there than your customer. And if you can get your customers on board and help them share the love and help you with innovation and help you grow your brand, that's a whole, I mean, that's, that's the Holy grail that is everything to our brand because it's a lot cheaper to do things right, every single day and continue to improve and continue to align with your customers, et cetera than it is to throw a lot of money at things. You know, you're talking about, um, some of the efficacy issues, et cetera. I remember back when the non-GMO fight was going on in California, that some of the brands that were fighting for the non-GMO piece, their corporate owner was spending a ton of money to fight the other side of the equation.

Dan: So the point being is at their feet and their lips are not going in the same direction. And I think that's one of the biggest problems they have in this country right now, this country. And, and as we align ourselves with our values, et cetera, that's what makes sense. I mean, that's how we, how we solve so many of these problems, the climate and whatever. So regenerative, organic, talk a little bit about that because that's what I was hinting at the beginning. Why does it matter? How are you taking a leadership role in that? And then as a consumer, how do we get behind the brand and help you do what you're doing?

Matt: Okay. So, you know, a lot of the farm, most of all, the farms that we work with, they're organic biodiverse, regenerative, forest spice gardens, and, uh, you know, it's really amazing when you see what it looks like, but, uh, it's important in what they're doing that it's, it's making the soil a deeper, richer soil as they farm it. Um, so the problem that we had was, you know, one of our oldest categories is our spice category, but there's a lot of fluctuation in pricing and, and, um, and supply chains can actually be, be difficult at times, uh, cause we're not sole sourcing, but we're specifically working with organic and fair trade. So it's limiting. Right? So one thing that we did was we, um, made an arm of our company in Sri Lanka called regenerative organic Sri Lanka. And what we're doing is setting up our own farmers, uh, to grow, uh, spices for us.

Matt: So we started, you know, our first project is with turmeric, uh, and it's going amazing right now. Actually, we're starting to get pictures of the actual seedlings coming out now, uh, is really fantastic to see. But, uh, we found, you know, a group of a village that really wanted to work with us. Um, and, uh, they started planting organic, uh, turmeric, uh, seedlings. We paid for the ceiling, so seedlings, and so they didn't have any, uh, financial, um, risk or anything. They know that their crop is going to be sold shots. So it really helps them out knowing in this time of uncertainty that their crop is going to be sold. And so it's really amazing to see what they're doing. So, uh, it's becoming so successful that other farmers from their region are also coming in and say, Hey, how can we be a part of that?

Matt: You know, they want to jump in and boat and that's exactly what we want to do. So as we get a success story with the turmeric, we'll end up expanding that out to other spices that we're growing as well. And we'll have, you know, cinnamon farmers and cardamom farmers and, uh, ginger farmers that are all growing in a regenerative organic, uh, way too, and also achieving Fairtrade premium cert as well. So it helps their community. It keeps a strong, vibrant community, and it keeps families afloat, which is, you know, the foundation, of a community as a family. So it's really important, uh, in what we're doing. Okay.

Dan: So inspirational. Thank you for sharing that. And as I mentioned, Patagonia provisions are actually launching the organic regenerative organic certification on the podcast, which will be right before this one. So go back and listen to it. Anyone also Jeff Moyer with Rodale Institute, who's part of that certification. He was previously. I've got a lot of other brands that are on Catherine DIA motto. She's the one who was the original OTA director in the US but the point is having all of those people that come on and talk about why this matters. And now you're taking that to the next level and you're actually doing it. You're walking the walk, talking the talk. So first of all, I want to commend to you. And then secondly, it ties nicely into the fact that now people are starting to really pay attention to this. And so in fact, actually Tia with a Canadian organic trade association is excited to listen to the Patagonia provisions podcast.

Dan: As I said, that's episode 204. So thank you for sharing that because it all ties together and it reinforces the need. And the importance of doing this now, what we need to do is we've got to make it easier for brands like you to get their products or no more store shelves in the hands of more shoppers by eliminating or weeding out some of the inefficiencies in our supply system, et cetera. That's another conversation. Actually, we talked a little bit about that before, but the point is we've got to make it easier for brands like you to do good on our behalf. And that's where I was getting at before. When you're doing things that are supporting missions that align with my values, then paying you to do something good, or my behalf. And Oh, by the way, I'm going to get a higher, a better quality product as a result, while I'm doing something to make you help you make me feel better, you know, all that kind of stuff. I mean, that's the win-win at the end of the day. And at the same time, I'm going to be extremely loyal. So thank you for sharing all that. Any parting thoughts? Go ahead. Yeah,

Matt: Please. I just want to add that, you know, I'll take the, uh, the CR the thanks and, and the credit for it, but it's a great team of people all behind us and the real heroes are those farmers and people on the ground. That it's a, it's just such a wonderful group of people behind all of this, that, uh, from the group of women, making these canisters to those farmers that are actually tilling the land to Regina, who was a partner of ours in Sri Lanka of, of organic regenerative, Sri Lanka, who was on the ground, finding these people and doing all that great work to a Jeep though, who heads all these like amazing, um, um, packaging needs that we have to make them an a is. So there's a, you know, it's aligning with those great people and I'll spread that thing that you said all back to them.

Dan: Well, thank you for saying that because that's what makes natural natural, we're all in this together. We rise together and, but the point is not, but the point is, but the point is that you have the wherewithal, the vision to be able to think about how do you improve other lives? How do you make it easier, better for other people to survive and thrive? And so you, as an organization, you know, hats of all the people that are working with you, hats off, and this is why I wanted to have you on the podcast because this is something that needs to be celebrated. And as an industry, we need to do a much better job in my opinion, of showing the value of what you're producing, rather than here's how much it costs to buy that spice. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I know I can buy cinnamon for almost free. They can almost, you know, some of the different sentiments out there, but there's a big difference in taste and yeah. And that's, what's cool about what you're doing. So thank you for sharing any other parting thoughts.

Matt: Um, you know, um, I just want to commend everybody actually for their support of the organic industry. You know, it's, it's amazing to see us grow in double digits throughout even times of recession. It seems like the organic industry is just constantly in growth. And to me, it's, it's the future of food production. I think, um, I say, you know, to a lot of people in general, people are lost in food. They really don't know what's good and what's healthy. So, um, it's brands like us and other great brands out there that are doing great things that help educate people and help make food real again, and bring the culture of food and cooking back into people's lives. And I think that's, uh, that's the future of food and, um, I, I'm happy to be a part of it. And, uh, I think people like yourself for helping to get our word out and doing great things in the industry, you know?

Dan: Thanks. I appreciate it. Well, in the future of food, I love that it should coin that or product trademarked or what. No, that's great. Fantastic. Okay. So I don't know if I told you this at the beginning, but I typically give you an opportunity to share a bottleneck or a problem with me, and I'm going to try to help you solve it right now. So anything I can help you solve,

Matt: Uh, well, you know, for a small Canadian company entering into the US is always something that is daunting and, uh, can costly. And we don't have a lot of, you know, the money behind it. We don't have deep pockets, so we have to be very, very, uh, careful in our approach. And, um, so any, any advice you can provide on how a successful approach into the US market, uh, for us is something that's, that's very, um, uh, rewarding.

Dan: Sure. In fact. Okay. So one of the things we've talked about before is the fact that you have to import your product into Canada. And then if you have to import it from Canada into the US that has to go through customs again, add more costs, et cetera. So we talked about the possibility of maybe getting the product imported into the US the product that you sell in the US so build your own distribution center, whatever here so that it's easier, more cost-effective for you to get it. And that's one, two in terms of, and this is the big thing in terms of where you sell the product to, we need to help you identify who is your ideal consumer? Where do they live? Where do they shop? So all that stuff we were talking about before Matthew, you know, why do customers buy your product?

Dan: Do they, why do they understand the value of the product, et cetera. We need to find out where those customers live and shop in the US and then go after those specific markets, we'll start there. And one of the things I do is I would start with a very progressive mainstream retailer. Now, the reason I said that is because you can get scale instead of going to natural independence. I know that sounds contrary to a lot of the stuff that we think of as in the industry, but the point is, you've got to get into this country and you've got to be able to thrive, right? So if you can develop a relationship with a mainstream, very progressive retailer, you're going to get scale. You're going to get volume. You're going to get some of those metrics that are so critically important to your success.

Dan: Then start going after the independence, if you do that the other way around, well, if you go to an independent retailer, you've got to call on the store, you've got to have someone going to merchandise. You've got to have, you know, it takes a lot more money and a lot more time, a lot more energy for you to be able to do that. And we certainly want to support them. We certainly want to help them out. But the same thing is when you're going to Sherlock going to help farmers little farmers and think about if you could when those big fields you're talking about earlier, if you could grow Tumeric on a big field like that, well, obviously you can grow a lot of it. You can scale faster, et cetera, et cetera, but that's not what you're doing. That's not what your product's about.

Dan: That's not the company mission. That's that, that takes away from the efficacy of the quality of the product. So think about what can you do to get into this country and get to the point where you can grow and scale enough, where now you can start to begin supporting those independent retailers, you know, and, and sadly you going through a distributor, this is part of that. Why I'm suggesting this, when you go through a distributor, they want their cut. You go through a broker, they want their cut and everyone's got their handout. So the cost of, and this is true in, in Canada, too. I'm sure that the true cost of putting an organic product on the shelf. It's not that it's that much more expensive. It's just that more expensive in terms of all the supply side, all the people have their handout. In other words, the argument I made about the bread, okay, that's something we need to celebrate, but the reality is if I can put that same organic loaf of bread on a store shelf, a lot cheaper than that gives me more parody or my ability to support, or, or be able to compete more effectively with the main suit bread.

Dan: And so what we need to do is we need to fix our supply system and that, so part of your job as a brand is how do you, exploit probably the wrong word, but kind of exploit the supply chain so that you're not throwing good money after bad to start getting your footprint in this country. And then as you begin to grow your in this country, then you can be able to get into some of those other categories, diversify, but then you've got the story. Here's what we're able to do at retailer X. Here's what we can do at your store. So you've got the tracker, you've got the story, you've proven yourself. And that's the key. It's a lot harder to go to a thousand independents or 500 independents and say, here's what we did at each one of these stores. Whereas you can just do one store.

Dan: So it's all about building that story. It's all about that brand story in terms of how you communicate the value of your brand. Then at that point, you take that next step. And one of the things I considered, I would recommend you doing is finding other Canadian companies that compliment you and get them to go on this journey with you, spread the cost out over other companies. And then, yeah, and then in addition to that, it's, you know, build a, what I would call a pole strategy and where you have your online community support your product and get people in this country excited about it. So that they're going to go into a retailer and say, I want this, how do I get this product? And then at that point, retailers will start calling you instead of you having to pay to get on their shelves and stuff. So, and I mean, does that help?

Matt: Yeah, that's a great help. And it does go a converse too. You know, what you might think the strategy should be. So I think, I think that's really, really helpful. Um, yeah, that's great insights.

Dan: Well, I appreciate it. Yeah. The current strategy today is to sit down, shut up, get out your checkbook. And I'm being a little flippant when I say that, but that really is the way that brands do things in this country. And it goes back to the authenticity that we're talking about in terms of you being a Canadian company, the way you go to market, et cetera, it's indifferent. And the reality is that, or 80% of brands fail within the first year. I'm committed to fixing that. This is one of the ways I do that by helping brands. Like you find additional bandwidth to support mission-based causes to support sustainable growth, a certain kind of a side note, but I'll throw this out there. Another one of the things that I find a lot is that because the strategy isn't there in place, a lot of brands are so eager to get distribution.

Dan: They don't think about, is it good distribution? So I'm working with someone, who's got a product she's in California. It's an amazing product that she got into a distributor. They put it in Florida, Indiana, and Louisiana. There's no way she can support it the way she needs to the cost of freight, everything else on top of that, it's a recipe for failure. And I hate seeing brands make that mistake. So as you come into this country, let's find a way to do it. Very purposeful. That's going to help you grow and scale so that you can do a lot more. And I would also stay as close to home in terms of where, you know, the year US counterparts as you're growing your brand out. So hopefully that helps.

Matt: That's great. And just going back a little bit, I love the idea of something I based my whole sales career on is building on success stories. Right? So get that big six success story and then, and then use that and leverage that. And so that's fantastic insights really, really appreciate that.

Dan: Oh, anytime. Well, thank you for coming on. I appreciate it. And thank you for being here. And again, we'll put a link to everything in the podcast and I'm God, thanks so much for making time for me today.

Matt: Oh my pleasure. And if anybody wants you, you can go social media, Chas, organic C H a apostrophe S organics. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. Uh, we love to share a story. So please feel free to look us up and follow us and get our products

Dan: Well, and I've become a huge fan of jaws organics. I mean, I love what you guys are doing. I love the mission. I love everything that you're doing to support the culture, the climate there. So thank you again, for your time. Appreciate it.

Matt: Well, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Thanks.

Cha’s organics https://chasorganics.com/

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