BRAND SECRETS AND STRATEGIES

PODCAST #88

Hello and thank you for joining us today. This is the Brand Secrets and Strategies Podcast #88

Welcome to the Brand Secrets and Strategies podcast where the focus is on empowering brands and raising the bar.

I’m your host Dan Lohman. This weekly show is dedicated to getting your brand on the shelf and keeping it there.

Get ready to learn actionable insights and strategic solutions to grow your brand and save you valuable time and money.

LETS ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES AND GET STARTED!

Dan: Welcome. I'm in the process of redesigning my Resources page on my website to provide you with downloadable guides to help you get past many of the bottlenecks that many of you are facing. I'm also adding a lot of valuable resources and tools that I personally trust and endorse, a calendar of industry events, my tip of the week that I include in my weekly newsletter, along with a place where you can subscribe to it, my weekly articles, my newest podcast with industry CEO’s and Founders and so much more.

Today's story is about a brand that leverages all the strategies, tips, and techniques that I talk about on this podcast, in my content, in my courses, and on stage. These are the strategies that can help differentiate you on shelf, to help you become a category leader, to help you as a brand become a lot more than just a box on a retailer's shelf. This is how you stand out. This is how you differentiate yourself from other brands in the category. This is where you become a value added resource to the retailer. By doing this, by taking advantage of these strategies, not only do you compete at a much higher level, but more importantly, when you become a value added resource, retailers start to reach out to you for help for incremental merchandising and promotional opportunities.

Put another way when you can help the retailer get what they want, more sales, more foot traffic in their stores, then they're going to help you get what you want. This episode today is about those strategies that help you get your product on more retailers' shelves and into the hands of more shoppers. Here's Russ Forrester with Hain. Russ, hi. Thank you for coming on today and thank you for being available. Before we get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey to Hain?

Russ: Sure thing, yeah. I work for the Hain Celestial Group. I've been here for 16 years, so I’ve really seen this natural and organic product industry evolve quite a bit over time. I live in Boulder, Colorado, so kind of a hotbed of natural and organic. It's been really educational to watch all these small brands grow up here and kind of get absorbed by bigger companies. Hain has kind of been a part of that as well. So yeah, started at Hain as an analyst, worked my way up to where I am now, kind of grew with the company. Before that was it was not really in packaged goods, so just kind of a naturally and organic packaged goods kind of guys.

Dan: Let's go back a little bit. One of the things I notice about your career path is that we have something in common. I used to work for Standard and Poor's, many many many years ago, well before you. What did you do for them? The reason I ask this question is because that gave me a perspective of how companies look at things in terms of what's relevant to a company balance sheet, et cetera. What did you do for them, and how did that help you in your current career?

Russ: That's funny you mention that because I think about my career prior to Hain as sort of this anomaly. I was a psychology major in high school, sorry, in college, and then went on to work in business with various companies. At Standard and Poor's we were working on their Compustat division in Denver, and we did a lot of financials and worked with a lot of companies. Did custom solutions and did a lot of analytics. Honestly, I think the benefit there was working more on the analytics side and getting involved with Excel and understanding how to crunch numbers and then honestly take those numbers and really turn them into the narrative. I think that's kind of the key in this industry. At least what I do is how do you take raw data and turn it into information, and turn that into a story. What is it saying? What is it telling you? And then what does that mean and what's the implication for your business. I think that kind of was a nice foundation, and then when Hain was hiring for a category analyst 16 years ago, I didn't have the CPG background, but I had that analytical experience and the ability to do what I was just talking about, which is to create that narrative from a bunch of raw information.

I think they saw something in me and I was lucky enough to get hired with really no relevant experience in the package goods field, but I brought sort of that analytical background from finance and everything else into this industry. Its' been a cool learning experience, to be honest.

Dan: I agree. In fact, I don't talk about it much, certainly I don't think I've shared it in the podcast, again this is way before your time, but it did open a lot of doors in the sense that it helped me understand how companies do things, it helped me understand how companies go to market, the processes they use, et cetera. Now a little bit of my background is I was actually studying to be a CPA in college, and so I worked for Standard and Poor's for a couple of years. I worked in the same division where we were responsible for providing the information that eventually went into the S&P 500, et cetera, and it went into the articles that were published in Business Week about company performance.

Where I'm going with that is to your point, learning how to do analysis, perform analysis without having any guidelines or rails or anything you need to follow, not the templates that you see today, forced us, forced me anyhow, to really look at the data in a very different light and to ask different questions, so why what happened. That's sort of been the harder, the focus for everything I've done throughout my entire career. It's interesting that you've done that.

Now, working for Hain, and by the way, a lot of companies, when I work with them, I always suggest that they try to find someone who's got that, what I would call CSM mentality and some solid Excel skills. Where I'm going with that is that you would be the perfect candidate with that background because the ability to go in and look at data and understand data and appreciate data, and then have that curiosity that you had to have to be successful at Standard and Poor's and to be able to leverage that at Hain makes all the sense in the world. When you started at Hain as a category analyst, what did that look like? Where I'm going with this is that back when you started with Hain, there really wasn't anything, in terms of ... Let me put it this way, Category management in mainstream is night and day different than category management in natural. What did the role look like when you started in that position?

Russ: Yeah, we had a lot less brands and a lot less data, so it was kind of creating the ear point. The natural and organic industry historically didn't have a whole lot of discipline around category management, so it was figuring out what category management meant, first of all, because it was new to me, and the data and what ACV was and velocity and kind of figuring all that out, and then building a suite of reports that we could send to management so they could understand their share and the importance of share and velocity when you're thinking about a retailer and fighting for space and justifying your space, so it was sort of building out the capabilities internally, not just from a technical tool standpoint. Really just talking the language internally and getting the organization to understand why this is important, how other big companies look at their categories, and bringing that into Hain Celestial. It was a pretty fun experience. Then it was educating your sales people in how to read the data and how to use the data at retail.

We talked a bit about looking at the data and turning it into a narrative, well also being able to kind of present that information to a retailer in an interesting exciting way is something not a ton of people have the ability to do. How do you keep them engaged? How do you create that great story, and how do you make it exciting and impactful was something that we all had to learn, and then we had to teach our organization how to do that.

I think it's something where a lot of the bigger CPG companies have that embedded with them now, and I think a lot of the smaller natural and organic brands don't. Quite honestly, that's something Hain, these days, really prides ourselves on is like, "How do we become the thought leader for not just natural and organic, but the whole category as it evolves," so as snacking evolves, how are we the thought leader of snacking, bringing a different point of view to retailers than say Frito Lay might with their own angle.

Dan: Love that. Let's go back a little bit. You've mentioned so many things that I'd really love to unpack. When you were talking about educating the sales team, what does it look like and how do you do that?

Russ: It's an uphill battle, sometimes. We've obviously kind of upgraded our sales team over time with great talents from bigger CPG companies, but at the beginning, it was literally like having, at our sales meetings, Excel training. Here's how you open a file. Here's macros and all that. Beyond that, it was educating them on basic facts like I had to do to myself when I started, but it's like, "Okay, what is ACV and what does it mean? It's not really the number of stores you're in. How do we measure our brands versus your competition to know if you're being successful, and how do you defend those brands and items at key category reviews? You're basically teaching them how to read the information, interpret the information, and then spit it back to the retailer.

We do a lot of that work behind the scenes for them, but they need to understand how that's done so that they can then ... We can't be at every retail meeting, my team, the analysts, the category development managers, so you've got to rely on the sales team to take the presentations you're putting together and speak to them educated. That's kind of how we started was how do you talk the talk, and then how do I present this information in a non-dry fashion to kind of get your point across to the retailer.

Ultimately, to me, is a good presentation will stand on its own. I can send it to someone and they can get my point and my meaning without me actually doing the presentation. To me that's a successful presentation.

Dan: We were talking yesterday a little bit about this and you asked me why I hung my shingle. This is exactly why. I think, unfortunately, most of the brands out there, certainly the small brands, don't have this skill. To go one step further, a lot of sales people don't have this skill too, and it's nothing against sales people, but unless you really understand this, unless you have the passion and the drive and the ability to really dig into these numbers, which by the way takes a fair amount of time, then it's really really hard. One of the things that I struggle with, same as you were talking about, is helping brands understand why this matters.

I love the fact that you were talking about the importance of category management within Hain, and then how you were instrumental in helping develop and educate and support your sales force. This is one area that I think natural has really fallen down on, so let me back up even more. As I mention, I've been doing this for a long time. Category management was developed years ago, back when I was working for Unilever, right around that time was when the term was coined. Large brands rely heavily upon category management. Now there's some pros and cons, et cetera, but if you're a big brand, that's essentially the backbone of all your sales and your marketing efforts. Small brands don't have that capability. They don't focus on it. As a result, they're at a significant competitive disadvantage.

Now as far as the way we do it in natural versus the way it's done in mainstream, that's a whole other conversation, but to have the basic facts in front of you so that when you're working with a retailer, to help the retailer understand what's driving sales at the category, why your product's relevant, how your consumer is more important than maybe the other consumer, that's the key to every brand success. Can you talk a little bit about some of the challenges that you've seen, that you've faced, and how you've overcome them in terms of how do you educate the retailers on why this stuff matters.

Russ: Yeah. You just kind of hit on a lot of it, right, which is why your brands matter. Right? So as consumers change their eating habits and their buying habits and they're looking for fresher and they're looking for less processed foods, it's kind of showing these macro trends to the retailers. Earlier on that was a bigger fight then it is now. I think everyone kind of now knows it, but it's here are the trends, conventional products are relatively flat to declining, natural and organic is growing double digits, increasing space.

The pushback you'd have from the retailers is, "Hey, these natural and organic products don't necessarily turn like the conventional products do. So why should I devote more space to these products when Cheerios and Frito fly off the shelves." It's teaching them to stay ahead of that curve and to say, "Look, it's not just about the individual item itself and how quickly it's turning in comparison to its conventional peer. It's about the shopper that wants that natural and organic product, that is looking for something new, that is looking for something different, and that shopper is generally more educated, affluent, and so the basket rind is higher." You kind of create this bigger strategic story of, "Hey, it's better for your total store if you have these products because you're going to attract better consumers that quite honestly, they shop more often because they're looking for fresher food, they like to prepare their food at home, and they spend more each time, so hey, they're coming more often and their basket size is higher."

If you can show that when your product is in the basket, the basket ring is 15 or 20% higher than when your product isn't in the basket, it starts making this compelling story of, "Hey, it's a bigger picture that you need to consider when you're trying to think about how to merchandise these products." That's sort of the key storyline, and then it changes from category to category and retailer to retailer, but that's the basis of the story. Then it becomes, as this evolves, "How do you merchandise these natural and organic products? Where do you merchandise them in the store? How do you speak to the consumer about it? How do you educate the consumer about it?

That's some of the stuff we really like to do with retailers on a strategic basis, is kind of the bigger ... The fun thing about being at Hain and all these brands across the whole store is coming into a retailer with that holistic view of, "How should your store look? How should your aisle look? How do you get consumers back into the center of the store?" Those are some of the fun things we work on and some of the research we do to try and figure that stuff out.

Dan: That's exactly why I love this industry, and while I know I can't take any credit for any of this stuff you just said, it sounds like you've been immersed in everything I've been talking about for these last several years. Where I'm going with that is that teaching brands how to take a leadership role in their category, teaching brands to become more than just an ATM machine, more than just another package on a retailer's shelf, that's the opportunity.

Let me go back a little bit. You're talking about, and I'm glad you said this, thank you, that natural brands have very low velocity compared to their mainstream counterparts. That's one of the biggest challenges that I run into. I mentioned that I do a lot of work, or do a bunch of webinars et cetera with Category Management Association, which is all the brands, and then also Food Marketing Institute, FMI, so teaching them what makes natural natural. Back to your point about low velocity versus high velocity and helping those brands, those retailers understand and appreciate why those natural brands are so important.

So let's talk about this. As you mention, and thank you again for mentioning that too, the basket ring, that consumer's unique. If I wanted to buy, and I don't want to pick on any brands necessarily, but let's say Frito, I can buy Frito any place, any market, any time, and it's a price driven commodity, or P&G, or any of those other big brands that are out there, Kellogg's, you name it, but to be able to buy something that keeps consumers coming back into my store, that's responsible for sustainable profit, sustainable category sales within my store, at the end of the day, that's the answer.

When you're working with retailers, and you said you're telling the story, which again, I really appreciate that, how do you help retailers understand and differentiate why that store is so much more important, because to your point, this is the future of CPG. I believe that the mainstream rents are going to continue to struggle and that their future really needs to be small brands like Hain. Can you go into that a little more?

Russ: Yeah. I think it's understanding who their shopper is and where they're leaking to. I think leakage is really interesting, for these retailers, where else ... Who are my shoppers that buy natural snacks, how many of them are in my store, and how much are they spending in my store and how much are they spending elsewhere. If they're going elsewhere and you're leaking a lot, well what is it? I think a lot of times these retailers, they don't have a significant enough set of products to really stand out, or they don't sign it correctly. If you just fully integrate natural products on the shelf with a bunch of mainstream products, you're not really creating an opportunity to trade up a conventional shopper to a natural product because they don't understand why the other product on the shelf is more expensive than the one next to it.

If you're looking at soup set and you're looking at Campbells and Pacific, and you don't understand why Pacific's more expensive, the retailer failed right there. Right? They're not signing the natural organic products correctly and educating the shoppers. Then what you do is you also turn off that core consumer, right, so that whole food shopper, if you want to attract a whole food shopper into a conventional store, and they can't find their natural organic products, or the assortment isn't enough, they're going to leave.

I consider myself a core shopper. I spend a lot of money in natural and organic foods, I love shopping at the natural groceries because they have such great innovation. It's sort of that treasure hunt that you get at Costco, but for a natural organic products, what's new, what are the latest trends. Conventional retailers often struggle to carry enough assortment to really delight and excite a natural products consumer. It's entirely, "What is that right assortment, what is the right mix between conventional products and natural products, and what's the right way to merchandise those products in the store so that they can kind of stand out against their conventional peers?" I think that's super important.

One of the other things we talked about a little bit is how natural and organic brands don't necessarily focus on category management. You mentioned that earlier. I think part of that is the gold rush. It's like, "Hey everybody, these brands our out there, they're gaining distribution, and they're growing and they're gaining space." Eventually that stops and you hit a wall, and that's why conventional brands that you mentioned started category management, it was like, "How do we gain share growth in an industry that's sort of hit saturation," let's say. I think when brands hit that point in their evolution, that's when they realize, the growth gets a little harder and that's where you really need to be smarter with how you go to market, how you innovate, how to talk to the retailers, how you promote, how you price. I think that's where data and category management comes into play.

You look at the cannabis industry today in Colorado, and we're there. We're at that saturation point where brands and retailers are now looking at data, "What do I carry? What's my competition carrying? What's the right assortment?" Whereas other states are still kind of, it's still that gold rush. It's a very interesting analogy because I think they're very similar industries there and I think as you get ... You've got brands in our space now that are $15, $20 million brands that still don't buy data or practice category management. I think as you see the distribution expansion in the conventional channels slow, these brands are going to need to figure out how to fight for their space and justify their existence, and that's where the kind of category management and insights really come into play.

Dan: Glad you mentioned that, and I love the analysis the gold rush. I can just picture people fighting over it. Let me back up a little bit. You're absolutely right. Category management was started for a lot of those reasons, and a lot more. Let me explain. Way back when, before category management existed, all of the brands had reps going around, calling on every store, managing the shelf tags, managing the distribution. Everything was done at the store level. Very rarely did you have anyone do anything at the corporate level.

My point is this. Natural, today, is exactly what mainstream was 20, 30 years ago. The reason I wanted to highlight this and really dig into this is because we saw the inefficiencies, so not being able to manage your inventory properly, all the costs that are in this system that these small brands are burdening right now, the inefficiencies of not being able to help a retailer drive sales from one store to another store, so as a consumer, you go in one store, here's the assortment, go in another store, it's a radically different assortment, and you're trying to, as a brand, get your product out there as efficiently and as effectively as possible. This little company called Walmart came along, like them or not, they forced the industry to become a lot more efficient. Category management was actually started to help brands figure out a way to get their products on more retailers' shelves more effectively, more efficiently, because unless it's on a retailer's shelf, there's really little chance of getting it into consumers' hands.

All the things that are involved in that, that's what, in my opinion, true category management encompasses. Back to your gold rush thing, I agree. These brands are fighting like heck, tripping over each practically, spending whatever money they can to buy space at a retailer shelf, to try to do everything they possibly can without focusing on the core strengths, the core opportunities they have to really help that retailer drive sales. When you're talking about category management and how Hain has developed it, let's go back into career, you started as an analyst. What did the category management department look like, and then how did it evolve, and then what was your role in that?

Russ: Right. It was two of us, and we had some SPINS data and a little bit of Nielsen data. We mostly were running reports and doing item rankings and things like that. That was kind of my first year. Then there was some turnover. I was just a little bit lucky in that I kind of wound up being the last man standing, and then just kind of kept getting promoted and building the team. Today we have a team of nine people, and each analyst covers specific categories for me.

What we did is we kind of started taking data, and like I said, kind of what is it telling us, what's the story, and building out that capability here. That included investing in some information just beyond your typical scanning data. There's a lot you can see using IRI, Nielsen or SPINS, but there's a lot you don't see until you pull in either loyalty information such as 8451, or panel metrics so you can start talking to the retailer about leakage, about what's your assortment, what's your average items carried, what's your consumer, who's the profile of your shopper and do they index well with our brands.

The other thing that we started doing sort of in the second evolution of the category management department was whether that's IRI shopper sites or Nielsen Spectra, it's making sure that the stores that you're trying the get into are the right stores. Not all these natural and organic products belong in every store. At first, to your point, these retailers went in and it was like a shotgun approach, you just kind of threw it everywhere and looked to see what stuck.

We realized pretty quickly our products wouldn't sell everywhere and wouldn't sell well everywhere, so how do we make sure that the stores we're going into are the right stores, and using the tools available to make sure the demographics of the buyers, the buyer products line up with the specific stores that you're going into. Walmart's a great natural and organic retailer, but not every Walmart store is a great store for natural and organic products. It's understanding some of that and working with the retailers on those things, and building the capabilities. That was sort of phase one.

Then phase two was really creating a case study internally that said, "Hey, this stuff works. We're working with retailers, we're partnering with retailers, and it's resulting in increased space and better relationships with these retailers, but we can only do so much. We need more resources and we need more people to get it done," as the company grew, and we had more brands and we had more categories, we need more people to really dive into this and to support our business as a group.

The organization easily saw that, "Hey, okay. This is working. Yeah, I see that you're working with these retailers and getting category cap and sees. It's really helping to drive our business." As we hired more sophisticated sales leaders that were coming from conventional CPGs, they were talking the talk just like we were and they were like, "Exactly, you're doing the right stuff. We need more of this." Then they'd pour more resources into us. As they did, we were able to successfully cover more categories, more retailers, buy more 8451 data, or panel information, and all of that just kind of helps us continue that momentum and continuing to get, quite honestly, some cap and sees that really flabbergast me, some of the retailers, the size of the retailers, and the size of the categories that they want Hain to help manage, and that they come to us versus some of the bigger CPG players out there. It's a testament to the evolution and to the focus the organization's given to this type of information. They understand the value of it and the importance of it.

Dan: Hats off to you. That's exciting, that fact that they're coming to you. This, again, is the point of the podcast. This is why I put out all the content and put out et cetera, is to teach brands how to leverage these skills because once a retailer comes to you, once a retailer looks at you as more than an ATM machine, or just another package on the shelf, and they want you, they want your insights to help them differentiate what makes them unique at shelf, helps them drive customers in their store, at that point every thing's negotiable. At that point, you have the ability to be the first person they call when they need a display, the first person they call when they're going to redo an assortment. It puts you in the driver's seat for a lot of those questions and answering those, for getting into a lot of those questions and concerns and really driving the business.

Nine people in your company, in terms of category management, that's a pretty lean group. I was going to say when I started in category management, now keep in mind this was before the term was coined, we were one of the original, we started the department at Unilever. Not we, but I was part of that first group. What I'm getting at is we had 65 people working in category management for a $64 billion company back in the '90s. So to only have nine people working in every category, that's pretty lean. Now think about all the different categories Unilever touches, which back then was literally just about every company, every category out there, so you've got a very very lean team. The fact that you're management team realizes and appreciates the value that you're bring to the table, this is why this is so important.

Even if you don't, any of the brands listening, don't apply are don't go out and spend all the money on the data and stuff like that. You can get started by being able to tell the retailer your story, helping the retailer understand how you differentiate your consumer from other consumers and how your consumer is more unique or better or different, or whatever, to that retailer and how your consumer's the one who's driving sales in the store.

When you talked about the syndicated data versus the panel data, what was the evolution there? The reason I wanted to go here, Russ, is because first of all, as you mentioned, a lot of people really don't understand how to use the syndicated data. You're educating your sales team. You're working within your groups to try to understand and how to appreciate that, and how to communicate the value of that. What was the transformation moment that led you to start investing time and energy, and then money, into getting into the panel data, and then from your explanation, what is panel data and what does it do for you?

Russ: Yeah. I think the evolution was just the proof point. Right? It's like getting a little bit of a, sort of a snap shot and getting your hands and what you could. Then proving organizationally like, "Hey look what this information can do." Once they see that, and the get it, you just have to open up the wallet a little bit to buy it.

The panel data is ... There's a lot of different sorts of consumer data. Panel data specifically, that Nielsen and IRI use are a panel of households that track what they buy and where they bought it. It's demographically balanced across the US and you can see what they're buying, how frequently they buy it. The organization that runs it knows their demographics, how many people are in their household, where they live, so there's a lot you can really learn about who's buying your products, the frequency, what else they buy, if they stop buying. You can kind of look at lapsed users and then where did they go. You can start looking at source of volume, so where am I sourcing my buyers from. So if you launch a new brand, or you launch a new item or new innovation, where's that revenue coming from? Is it coming from other products? Are you cannibalizing your own sales? It really opens up a whole new world of what's really happening out there.

If you're losing sales, it's "Where's it going? Is it going to competition? Did they leave the category all together?" That great because you can show ... There's nothing more important than a retailer than the incrementality of a product. If you can say, "Look, you added these products and they were completely incremental to the category," or they were 80% incremental to the category because it's a unique purchase occasion, or unique usage occasion, that's really what gets the retailer excited. It's not, "Okay, well if you take these products at 10 extra million dollars a year to your category, was that all incremental or is some of that coming from other products in the category? To be able to answer some of those questions for the retailers is super helpful. That's where we like the panel data. There's just a lot you can do with it. It really tells a more robust story, say then the syndicated data can.

Dan: Absolutely. I could not agree with you more. I say a lot of times that retailers need actual insights. Let me back up and explain what that means. If you print, by the way, you know I work for SPINS and actually I help you guys in terms of working some of the things you were doing within SPINS data base, et cetera, back then. I had an opportunity, I had the privilege of being able to really understand or take a look behind the curtain in terms of what you were doing a couple of years ago.

What I'm getting at is to be able to walk into a retailer and lay down a report that say, "Look, I'm ranked number three in the category, category's up, my brand's up, whatever," that's not actionable. Savvy retailers already know how well your brand is doing. What retailers want and need are brands that are willing and able to step up and help educate them about the category. They want insights that they don't have access to. They want insights that they don't necessarily have the time to dig into. So when you think about a category person, category manager within a retail environment, their desk is full. They're constantly trying to churn products, make sure you've got the right amount of product on the shelf, and bring new products in. They've got a very busy schedule. They don't have the time, and more importantly, they don't have the expertise to really understand what's driving sales in the category.

So what do I mean by that, and again, nothing against retail category managers, the reality is is that no retailer can be an expert on every item they sell or every category they sell in. It is incumbent upon brands to step up and fill that role and become a partner with those retail category managers to help them drive sales in their store. To go one step further, retailers, generically, don't make anything. They sell other people's stuff. What they sell is real estate in the form of the space your product takes up on their shelf. If you, as a brand, can help the retailer grow sales, as you said, incremental sales, by leveraging the strength of your consumer within their store, and then more importantly help guide them in terms of what trends do they need to pay attention to, what's unique about this consumer versus another consumer, and then how does that retailer compete more effectively by leveraging his insights, at the end of the day, that's what the retailers want and need. Again, this is why I really wanted to have you on the podcast today, so thanks for coming on.

When you're talking about that, you said that a lot of retailers now are reaching out to Hain and asking you to become a category captain. What does that look like and then what roles do you take over as you become a category captain within these retailers? What does that mean?

Russ: Yeah, historically it's a lot of work. It's a lot of data grinding and it's a lot of planogram building. We've taken a unique approach where we kind of come in with this thought leadership pieces and we'll invest in a category, say for example, snacks, and we'll do a bunch of research and we'll come up together with a category point of view and a category selling story that's brand agnostic, so it's, "Okay, so what are the dynamics of the category? How is the consumer shopping the category," so consumer decision tree, purchase hierarchy. Based on all of that, how do we think the shelves, or the aisles, should really be set, how do you anchor the aisle, what's the most popular sub-category and brands and should that anchor the aisle so it draws people into the aisle? Very much an agnostic impartial view of a category.

Then we drill into the specific retailer and what they're doing, maybe right and wrong, with pictures of their sets and pictures of what we think are optimal sets. If those sets don't exist in the real world, you create a stratagram or a suggestagram, which is sort of a planogram that isn't specific to the items, but is a little more specific to, "Okay, anchor the aisle with tortilla chips, then you put here, and then this is how it should flow." We build that story and we go in.

What we find is we learn a lot about the retailer through that process and what their strategies in that category might be, or what their overarching strategies are corporately, and how this category might fit that. You're, right there, you're just creating a position of trust and some phenomenal dialog with your retailer. The sales people are always amazed at how much information they get that they didn't know, in a meeting like that, about the retailer, just that exchange of information and how we're not in there selling, we're in there with insights.

That's kind of step one. Then what usually happens is the phone calls start coming, or the emails start coming from those buyers saying, "Hey, I really like what positioned it. I need some help with making an argument that I need more displays in this category and this is where they should go. Can you help me build that argument?" Then there were kind of aligning with them and we're partnering with them and we've created a value added relationship.

Then that's sort of step two, step three, and then what happens is they eventuality are like, "Okay, well you know what, I need an advisor on the category, someone to help validate what the captain might be saying." We like to do that. Honestly, for me, category captaincies are great, but to your point earlier about the lean staff, we can't do captaincies for every retailer and every category, so we pick the retailers that move the needle. We pick the categories for Hain that really can move the needle. There we will fully accept a captaincy role.

Then what that implies is working very closely with the buyer, weekly touch points, understanding all the innovation that's coming out from your competitors and what the buyer wants to put in, and really drilling into what are they carrying today, what's the assortment look like compared to the competition, how the sub-categories are merchandised. If we have consumer decision trees, how is the category shopped and let's make sure that we set it, if it should be by brand or should be by sub-cat, should be by flavor, and taking all of those learnings and really activating them and creating an aisle flow, and how does the aisle flow and what are the right mix of items for the retailer.

Then usually the retailer implements that. That involves a lot of planogram building, which is something we often times partner with a broker on. Then it's measuring the reset and was it successful and are sales up. Then we create case studies on that, both to show internally that it works, and then also to show the retailer like, "Hey, you reset your snack category based on our recommendations, and your sales are up 10%." Then using that information internally, quite honestly, to keep selling the stuff.

We had a major retailer come to us about a month ago and they said, "Hey, we want you to be category captain on our largest category." They happened to be the largest retailer in the country for this category. We're like, "Wow, that's a great opportunity." I can't staff it. I worked with a sales person to create a case study and I said, "Look at all the work we've already done with this retailer. Look at what it's done for our business and where we've benefited, and look at what it's done for the retailer. Let's make that case to show how it's proved out and let's hire a category analyst that will support this person at that account." Kind of just went to our CEO and said, "Look, here are the facts. Here's where this has gotten us so far. Here's what we've been asked to do. We're going to have to say no unless we hire this person. Can we go make a hire and get a incremental headcount?" 10 minutes later I got a yes.

Dan: Great.

Russ: Again, that's fact based selling internally, and it's also fact based selling with the retailer. To me, that how those relationships can really work in an ideal environment.

Dan: I appreciate your saying that. Again, this is exactly why we're doing, why we're having this conversation today. You asked me yesterday what am I doing, this is what I do. I teach brands how to leverage these strategies. Even if a brand doesn't have the ability or the money or the finances to be able to hire people, dedicated people to be a category captain, they need to be doing some of this. At the very least, they've got to have a clear strategic roadmap. I talk a lot about the fact that one of the biggest strategies is overlooked, in terms of what brands do, is a business strategy. They talk about innovation. They talk about learning how to go get more money and how to get capital and how to get financing. Well a more efficient way to use that money is to figure out how do you work with a retailer. How do you develop that relationship, how do you help drive sales in the retail store. So thank you for sharing all that.

By the way. I am building out a bunch of courses about this, so this is part of what we were talking about yesterday, again, helping brands understand how to tackle these specific objectives. So you talked about brand agnostic. You need to really dig into this. When I started doing this, there were a lot of big brands that would walk up and say, "Here's what the category looks like, here's what we need to have." And it was all about the brand, from the brand's perspective.

If you can, as you said, and thank you for saying this, be impartial, be brand agnostic, that's how you build trust. Having the ability to come in and work with a retailer, and be able to show both points of view, and even recommending discontinuing some of your own items, that sometimes is very very important. By the way, when you discontinue some of your own items, a lot of times you do that because you know why your item's going to be discontinued anyhow, and if you have the opportunity to discontinue it, recommend a new item go in its place, preferably, hopefully one of yours if possible, that builds a lot of credibility and trust. What you're talking about is how everything that you're doing, Russ, is based upon your relationship, the trust that you've built with that retailer. So to have a retailer come up to you and say, "Hey, we want you to be the category captain at our store, at our chain," and then be able to validate that, and then help your senior management understand the ROI, the benefit to being able to help you drive sales, and then be able to leverage that store with another retailer and so on and so forth, it's very circular in terms of how this stuff works, why this stuff works, and how this can impact your business.

Can you talk about how, one of the things that you mention, you were talking about buyers ask you or reach out to you to help you align with partners and help you appreciate or provide ... help you become a more value added resource. The reason I want to go down this path is that I too have been a category captain. It's extremely labor intensive, extremely expensive, and there were a lot of times I said no to, so hats off for being able to have the wherewithal to do that. But in terms of that value add piece, I've been asked a lot of times to come in and validate a category that we didn't plan, or help them with a strategy in a category we didn't plan, et cetera. When you're talking about that, do you find yourself in that role as well?

Russ: Yeah, I try not to advise too much in categories we don't plan because I just don't have the education around it, but yes, often times we're asked to be validators. That's the kind of work we like to do. We've seen some funky stuff where we looked at categories and we're like, "They should be set by sub-category," because that's how the consumer shops the category. There's just so much evidence for it, and the retailer goes, "Well, this major manufacturer tells us that it should be set by DSD versus warehouse." You go, "Well, the consumer doesn't know what that means. That's a product that's irrelevant. It's just easier for that manufacturer. So here are the facts and let's experiment with a different way to do it," and then testing it. A lot of times you test some of these ideas in a few stores and see if they work, and if they're successful, they kind of build on themselves. It's just a matter of, like you said, creating that position of trust. Once you do, it just opens up a million doors at these retailers. We sit on some advisory councils with these retailers. Literally, I think, each week my team gets direct outreach from buyers with questions.

Dan: That's exciting.

Russ: ... or asking for help. To me, that's ultimate benchmark of success for the team, right, that we've created, we've got direct access to buyers at major retailers that reach out to us for advice, or we can reach out to them directly and say, "Hey, we've got some really great new information on the yogurt category. Would you like us to come and share with you our insights and partner with you more on yogurt in a way we haven't before," or baby food or snack, or whatever category that is.

Their peers will say, "Hey, we've worked with them in snacks and they were great, yeah, you should definitely try it with baby food." Right? And so that just perpetuates within side the retailer's walls.

Dan: It does. Again, hats off for you for being in that position. One of the things you were just talking about, let me back up and share something. Years ago before Hain bought Rudys, I did a project where I tried to help them understand that if they were to get their products next to their mainstream counterparts, consumers would then have a choice. Let me illustrate what we're talking about, why this matters for anyone listening. The point is, to set up the story, this is how it worked. If you went and you bought bread, the mainstream bread, you could tell who the set was designed by, and by the way, that's something that you know being in the business that you understand what I'm talking about. You can kind of get a feel for who designed the category, why they designed it, and to your point, designing the category from the standpoint of this is what the DSD person wants to make it easier for them to merchandise versus what makes sense for the consumer. This is why I'm bringing this up. The natural organic set was in a different section. It was actually in the same section that you would find to buy hotdog buns and English muffins and stuff like that, not next to bread.

So Rudy's wasn't in a position where a consumer could walk up to the shelf and see the value. Point being that, and what I recommended is that if you were to put Rudy's Organic next to the best mainstream bread out there, right next to it, for a few pennies more at shelf, a consumer can then make the choice for themselves to be able to see what makes more sense to them. Best mainstream bread, let's say that it's $4.50 and the Rudy's was close to $5, or whatever make up whatever numbers you want, but the point is if you are what you eat, then what you eat matters, and if you're eating organic bread, if you're eating something that's wholegrain, et cetera, then that's going to fuel you and sustain you longer. To be able to take that message to the retailer, to help the retailer to understand what is unique about that consumer, the consumer that gets the value proposition, who's more than happy to pay a few pennies at shelf to buy a product that's going to sustain them longer, that's the win for the retailers. That's what I mean by actionable insights.

As a result, and I'm certainly not taking credit for this, but Rudy's was able to put their bread right next to their mainstream counterpart, and again, give that consumer an opportunity to make the choices that were best for them. Instead of just shoving it down the consumer's throat, or trying to make a decision based upon what was easier or more efficient for the DSD driver, and by the way, DSD, that's the way the product comes into the back door, so everyone understands, but in trying to make it easier for the merchandiser, now we're focused on delivering value to the consumer. Why this matters is if you can help the consumer get what they want, find the products that they want, like, need, trust, et cetera, and make it easier for them to buy those products by getting them on the shelf where they're searching, that's how you grow sustainable category sales. This is why everything we've been talking about so far matters. Any brand willing and able to help a retailer step up, gain more foot traffic in their store by helping that retailer more easily shop their category, at the end of the day, that's all they're asking for. The fact that you're able to take that and parlay that into other opportunities to work with the retailer as a value added resource, that's the holy grail. So thank you for sharing that.

Earlier you were talking about how you present the data. Russ, how do you share the story? How do you bake all this stuff into a presentation, and how do you communicate this with the retailer? By the way, if you've got any comments about what I just said, please throw those in there as well.

Russ: Sure, yeah, I definitely agree with what you said, for all the reasons we've been talking about, but in terms of how we put it all together and get there, it's still old school, Power Point, it's a good way to communicate if it's done right, not a lot of words, couple charts. To me, the title of the slide is incredibly important. What are you trying to say, you shouldn't have to read the bullets on the slide to get the point of the slide. Like we discussed earlier, in fact a presentation can be read and digested without the presenter actually presenting this.

Sure, the presenter's going to bring a lot of color commentary beyond what's in the deck to the presentation, but if it can effectively communicate upfront what's the purpose and objective of the presentation, what are you going to talk about today, and a lot of times upfront, what is the opportunity for the retailer. If you see that they're underdeveloped in a specific category and there's a big opportunity, frame that dollar opportunity up on the front. "Okay, this is a billion dollar opportunity for you, and we're going to talk to you today about ways that you can kind of capitalize that and close some of that fair share gap." Right? Get them interested early, and then go through stuff, but if you, again, it's that agnostic piece, don't go back into your brands and your stuff. Talk in general about the category, then their competition, and how they can win and how you can help them win.

Ultimately, if you've got the right brands in that space, those brands are going to align in how that retailer goes and wins. Eventually you get those wins, but you have to lay that out in a way that's fact based and kind of leads to an obvious conclusion. We love to do these things in person, and we don't like presentations to be more than 20 to 30 pages for an hour meeting, just because it allows time for conversation, dialog, debate, which is always fun. We like to get big audiences. One of the benefits of being at a larger natural and organic company with a lot of brands is we can get what these top to top meetings, where we go in with or senior leadership, and we meet with CEOs of big big chains. People I never thought I would ever get an audience with, and they're listening to what you're saying and it's amazing. You're coming in with credibility because you've done it before, and they invite you back.

It's getting in front of the right people in an organization with an impactful presentation that looks professional, and tells a good story, and is short and to the point is all kind of advice that I have for people out there trying to do this.

Dan: I appreciate you saying that. Let me recap. When you start small, when you're just beginning to start out and be able to understand this stuff, you're providing real value to the retailer. What Russ is talking about, what I've done in the past too, working at a top to top level, this is where the company, the chain, the head manage, senior management of the retailer invites you in to help them understand assess, and evaluate their performance within the category, within their market, et cetera. This is the golden opportunity. As you continue to do this, and as you continue to progress, and as you continue to get better at this, the opportunity is to be able to be, literally, be a strategic advisor for the retailer at the highest level. When you're planning category growth, or helping the retailer drive category growth across every single division within the retailer, that's where you make the biggest impact.

One of the things you said earlier is trying to help validate the ROI of category management, this is the one question that every brand struggles with because how do you do that, somewhat nebulous. To be able to highlight to your CEO why this matters, that's important. But more importantly, to be able to highlight to the retailer the value that you bring over and above the other brands, and how you're able to help them drive sales, and where I'm going with this is that when you can make that big of an impact nationally, as opposed to working at one store at a time, then that's amplifies, dramatically amplifies, your ability to have a role, or have a voice at retail.

As I always say, one of the things I'm trying to do is to help good natural brands get an equal seat at the table with their more mainstream competitors. Until you build up that capability, you've got to start small, obviously, but once you built up that capability, then all of a sudden you're at a position where you can say, "You know what, our consumers drive more sales to the shelf." As a result, they put your products in more stores. At that point, that's how you start really driving sales. It's sort of a pay me now pay me later sort of mindset, if you will, in terms of you can either do this stuff the old way where you go in and you sell and you push and you push and you push, and then later you try to go back and try to figure out category management, or you can start strategically and get more runway, and build your sales and do a lot more with the resources that you have while you're small, nimble, and quick, as you're saying, very lean, to really drive sales within the category.

One of the things that you said, and now I really wanted to get into this, you said that you're becoming a thought leader. That's really what all this is about. As a brand, you're an expert in your brand, you're an expert in your customer, you're very passionate about the category you're in, you are a thought leader. Russ, what do you mean by thought leader and how do you take the insights that you've gained, or you've gleaned from other categories et cetera, and then how do you communicate that to a retailer?

Russ: Yeah, it's part of like what's going on today, most people can kind of see that, but then you have to kind of draw into the dynamics of what's driving that, why consumers are buying it, what are the health and wellness trends out there, and the macro trends, and then what's the category of the future really look like, because that's kind of what these category management projects are about, is setting yourself up for the next year to be successful. So not so much as what's in rear view mirror, but really what's coming is really important. It's kind of doing the research and talking to shoppers and doing focus groups and kind of getting a feel for who they are, what they're looking for, to understand what is that category of the future look like and how do you try to get a retailer to get there.

I think that's kind of where you really are. You can bring in insights and information that the retailers really appreciate because you're kind of taking a holistic approach of, "Yeah, here's what's going on today, and here are the share leaders," and all that, and to your point, you said this earlier, most buyers already know that. It's, "Okay, so what does that mean? What else are you seeing in the bigger macro market place that the retailers don't always see because their focused on their own stores." Its' the bigger picture. Multiple channels, online, everything. Demographics, millennials, what are people buying, and then what are the implications for innovation and future space for those retailers. I think that's really where you become a thought leader is when you can start looking at the future and really kind of helping them understand, "Well, what's next and how do we get ahead of that." It's not easy. I don't know that we get it right all the time, but I think that's what everyone, that's the holy grail everyone wants to know.

Dan: Absolutely. The other thing I wanted to share, and you mentioned this and thank you for doing that, is that as you become an expert in one category, you can then apply those insights to other categories, and it'll help you. You're talking about an opportunity that you had, in terms of the yogurt category, and this is exactly what we're getting at. So small brands, you need to start somewhere. You need to understand the data. You need to be able to really appreciate what's unique and different, and more importantly, what's unique about your consumer. You've got to start there at the basic level, but to get to where you're at, this is what every brand should aspire to. Again, only nine people, hats off to you, you're extremely lean to be able to do what you're doing, and to be successful at it, says a lot about your leadership. Again, really impressed that you're able to do that.

One of the last points that I really wanted to talk about is that you made the comment talk the talk. A good presentation will stand on its own. Can you go back to that a little bit and share what do you mean by that and why is that so relevant, and how does it differentiate you and Hain from your competition?

Russ: Yeah, I can't speak to what the competition's doing, but I know for us it's just, again, you go in with a nice short, concise story of what's going on, it's clear, to me it's up front. It's what are the objectives of the meeting, or what are the objectives of the presentation, and what is the opportunity for the retailer, and just laying it all out in plain English like that. A few slides, not a ton of words. Big impactful slides. Like I said, the title the slide, I think, is so important. The title of the slide should really capture what the slide is saying.

Okay, not just snack category shares, it's, okay, what is that telling you? Who's leading the category, or what's driving the growth in the category, or, what's now become passé. Coconut oil was the hottest thing ever a few years ago, now it's like, "Okay." That's declining, so let's just call it out, right, and being straight forward with it. I think those are key things. To me it's pretty simple and it's keeping things simple is the way to go. You can't get ... example, price elasticity could get very confusing and complicated. Keep it simple. What does that mean for the retailer, they raise the price, what are they going to see. Don't go all into the background and the research behind it. You have that if you need it, appendix it, but just so what is all they really care about, and then the now what, is what do you do with it. As long as you can focus on the so what and the now what, I think you get somewhere with the retailer.

Dan: Love that. Great advice for everyone listening. This is so impactful, and again, you've got to start someplace, but this is where you need to go. Again, I'm thrilled that you made the time to come on today, and thanks for being here.

I mentioned yesterday that something that I started doing recently on the podcast is giving you an opportunity to ask me a question. Is there a bottleneck or something that I could help you with?

Russ: You know, I don't think so. We're kind of out there fighting for space. If you've got any advice with competing with the bigger CPG companies that are sort of buying these brand in big multiples and spending a lot of money, I think our insights set us apart, but I can't fight the deep pockets necessarily, and the high margins that their conventional products have. That's been a challenge for us, and where we try and stand ahead is kind of with our insights. It is something that we look at as strategic advantage. We talk about it on investor calls. Quite honestly, we use it with the investor community, but at the end of the day, these brands have more money and more muscle than we do when they're absorbed by a conventional CPG brand. Have you got any advice around that, that's the holy grail I'm trying to fill out for.

Dan: I'm so thrilled you asked that because this is exactly what I talk about on the podcast and everything else. Yes, I do. Here you go, ready?

So, the answer to are question is this. Big brands tend to commoditize the shopper and the brand. They don't understand what makes natural natural. Let me explain. From the perspective of most big brands, they think of the Lohas shopper, someone who goes out and eats a couple of salads and goes for a walk. In our world, the low-ah shopper is somebody that's interested in not only in a couple salads, getting healthy, et cetera, but their focused on their carbon footprint. They're focused on how the product comes to market. They're focused on how that product impacts the environment they live in. They go hiking. In other words, that customer's a lot more robust.

Let me explain it this way. When I started in this industry, we focused on that your buyer was head of household, female, 2.5 kids, this age group, this economic group, et cetera. That's not enough. You need to know your customer, where they live, how they live, everything they do. Are they very invested in social media? How engaged are they in the community? What's important to them? What's relevant to them? That's what's sets your consumer apart. This is the thing that the big brands overlook and miss.

The next thing, the data. From the perspective of the big brands, it's garbage in, garbage out. They're not as creative and not as nimble as you are. If you can tease out those insights focused on what's unique about that consumer and how that consumer buys and why that consumer buys, and develop trends and an understanding of what that consumer is looking for in the future, that's going to help differentiate you. This is exactly why I developed my turnkey sales story strategies course, to teach these core principles.

Then most importantly, as you said earlier, big brands are struggling to survive. Even though they've got a lot of money and they continue to throw it at the category and continue to try to survive by their old strategies, their old strategy of rinse and repeat is not a strategy. It's not going to help them. Let me explain. Several years ago I wrote a feature article for 2016 Category Management Handbook, where I was able to look at every category in granular in terms of what was driving sustainable sales. To kind of skip through this, and I'll put a link to it in the bottom of the podcast webpage, that if you look at the dairy category, dairy is up I think it's about, first of all about a 90 some billion dollar category, so dairy was up 1.5%. Organic dairy was up 12. Some percent. Organic dairy represents only 9.8% of that pie. If you remove natural organic dairy from that category, then the category's up .5%. Why does this matter, is because that small sliver of the pie is responsible for all the sustainable growth in every category. See where I'm going with this?

If you can tie your consumer back into your store, and if you can help that retailer understand what's unique about the consumer, how you're driving the sales in the absence of what natural organic products are doing in other categories, that's how you really drive sales. By the way, the numbers that I quoted for organic, it's higher when you start talking about plant based, gluten free, and some of those other attributes that are the core of what we do. Does that help?

Russ: Yes, for sure. We're doing some of that. I think it's always great to show the size of the organic category within a total category, and then it's contribution to grow, because it's contribution to growth is always much larger than its share of sales today.

Dan: Yes.

Russ: Which really shows where I can go tomorrow. I think that's great. I think the ability to sell the category is kind of there now, so it is about differentiating the brands and the consumers and the shoppers. We're finding a lot around, we don't have the marketing muscle that the bigger CPG companies do, so you're marketing and your advertising is really your product and your image on the shelf, so it's packaging, what's the format of your packaging, and what does your packaging look like. That's something that can really help you stand out.

The other thing that we've seen is TPRs don't really drive a ton of lift, but what's really working these days is shopper marketing and digital activation, especially with these sharper, smarter, younger consumers that are looking for healthier brands. It's just kind of shifting the idea of trade dollars and where you really spend your trade dollars and how you spend them. I think that's another way to activate growth. That's where retailers really look at you too, and say, "Hey, these guys are bringing shoppers to my stores, and they're doing it through shopper marketing activities and the products that they have on the shelves." That's kind of how we've been trying to handle some of that.

Dan: Absolutely. Let me throw that in there. To your point, big brands spend a lot of time trying to convince us that they need to buy our product. "Hi, I'm a big brand. Come buy my stuff because I'm a big brand and I'm the best," whatever. They talk at us, not to us. Let me frame it this way, this is something else I talk about a lot, Russ, is that shopping today is different. Consumer buying habits are different. Consumers look beyond the four corners of the package. You mentioned that packaging's got to stand up on the shelf. The reality is this, when the shoppers walk up to the store shelf today, they have the opportunity to whip out their smart phone and do some analysis, some research about the product, who's using it, and how they use it, why it matters, et cetera. At that point, the retailers can also start digging into the ingredient panel and how transparent are you and do you meet their objectives? Do you support the mission that aligns with their values? That's what's unique about today's shopper.

By the way, this is something that the big brand can't do, or don't do, because they don't understand this. Layer that on top of everything I said earlier, and at the map point, now all of a sudden, and this is where I'm going with this, you have the ability to help the retailer understand why your products matter most to their consumers, and how you can help them drive sustainable sales, and sustainable traffic in their stores. You're absolutely right.

Is there anything else that you wanted to share today Russ?

Russ: I think that's it. Seems pretty good conversation.

Dan: Yeah, thanks.

Russ: Got me excited to be in the industry and doing what we're doing, so it's fun to kind of think outside of your own box and realize that what you do every day is pretty fun and unique and exciting.

Dan: Absolutely. That's why I do this, and as you asked yesterday, what differentiates me, this is what differentiates me. This is the niche I play in, helping brands, even big brands like Hain, try to figure out how to solve these bottlenecks, teaching smaller brands how to do some of these things, how to design a schematic, how to do the merchandising, how and where to go get the best data. To your point, you do not want your product in every store. That's a big challenge that I run into with a lot of brands is they get distribution in stores that don't make sense to them. They think, "Wow, I'm doing a great deal," but they undermine their foundation, et cetera, et cetera , et cetera.

Again, thank you for this great conversation. I really appreciate your time, and I look forward to the next time I bump into you up in Bolder.

Russ: My pleasure.

Dan: I want to thank Russ for coming on today and for sharing his insights, and for highlighting how category management has been a game changer for Hain, how it's opened doors for them, and how it's differentiated them from their competition. I'll be certain to put a link to Hain in the podcast show notes, and on the podcast webpage. Today's free downloadable guide is What is Category Management and Why is it Important. This short downloadable guide digs into more of what we talked about today on the podcast. It helps frame the importance of category management and why you need to develop these strategies from day one. You can get there by going to the show notes on the podcast webpage at brandscretesandstrategies.com/session87.

Thank you again for listening, and I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.

Hain Celestial http://www.hain.com

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