BRAND SECRETS AND STRATEGIES

PODCAST #20

Hello and thank you for joining us today. This is the Brand Secrets and Strategies Podcast #20

Welcome to the Brand Secrets and Strategies podcast where the focus is on empowering brands and raising the bar.

I’m your host Dan Lohman. This weekly show is dedicated to getting your brand on the shelf and keeping it there.

Get ready to learn actionable insights and strategic solutions to grow your brand and save you valuable time and money.

LETS ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES AND GET STARTED!

Dan: Welcome, and thank you for joining me today. In episode nine I had the privilege of speaking with Kelly Williams and Tom Dunn from FPK resources. They were kind enough to invite me to be the keynote at an event that they hosted in Atlanta, Georgia just a couple of months ago. While there I had the opportunity to meet several people in the packaging industry, experts and to learn from them about what's new, the new future trends et cetera. Information that I could share with you, my audience, to help you develop a competitive advantage.

One of the speakers at the event was Reyna Bryan. I was so thrilled with her passion for the industry and her insights about sustainable packaging, that I just simply had to invite her on this show. She's going to share with you information about the future of sustainable packaging, new trends and product developments to keep your eye on.

Now I admit, in the beginning of the show, we get a little bit into the weeds, talking about typical packaging, traditional packaging. I wanted to do this on purpose and the reason for that is I really wanted to set the stage, to help differentiate conventional packaging that most brands are using, actually probably every brand's using today, as compared to sustainable packaging, to really highlight the impacts sustainable packaging has on our future, on the impact of brands on the shelf and how it's really going to spur growth down the road.

Reyna was also kind enough to share another initiative that she has, where she has focused on helping brands understand the impact of sustainable packaging, and how to better communicate that to their core consumers, a win win. I think you're going to love this show today. I got a lot of great information about it and learned a lot about the industry, the packaging industry, as a result.

Welcome, today I'd like to introduce you to Reyna. She is an expert in sustainable packaging. So before we get started, Reyna, can you please tell us a little bit about yourself?

Reyna: Yeah. Thank you for having me Dan, I appreciate it. So my name is Reyna Bryan. I'm I guess an engineer that has been working hard to solve some of the global problems we face and I started with solving packaging. Some of the issues that we have in terms of waste that we create and generate and I'm building a sustainable packaging division with an existing company in Los Angeles, where we're making full compostable, flexible foam packaging for food products. What that basically means in layman terms is, we make packaging that looks and feels the same as the stuff you find in the grocery store, but will completely break down, biodegrade and is non toxic within a certain time period. That's what we do.

Dan: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? First of all I think that's fantastic, but for anyone listening what are the questions brands should as ask? If a brand were to look for packaging today, what would they find as far as all the developers and organizations that help them with packaging? In other words what does a landscape look like today? Why are you trying to take the industry?

Reyna: Yeah for most brands that are looking of packaging, a lot of times they might be limited by going to one manufacturer and those manufacturers are using materials that have been specked out for years and years. Everything is a little bit cookie cutter and the same. Your limited to what is known and there's not a lot of innovation, in terms of new materials coming on the scene for the majority of the packaging that you see today. What we we do differently is we help guide brands on this unchartered course to find more sustainable packaging options and we help them understand the options that out there and the materials that are out there and the opportunities and the challenges. Then we also help them do their ordering and if there's any issues, whether it's help with their technical representation and help guide them through the process.

Most brands either are buying packing from a manufacturer and not getting the support they need and they might not understand all the intricacy that come with packaging. We help guide them along that process.

Dan: Interesting. If I'm a brand and I come to you and let's say you're the first stop on the journey. What questions should I be asking you and other vendors and then how do you differentiate yourself in terms of your offering, but more importantly the sustainable portion of it? The other part of the question is, what is sustainability really look like?

Reyna: Yeah absolutely. One of the things that people should be thinking about when they are buying and looking to buy packaging is the end of life of that package. Where is it going to go? What material makes up that package. It's actually a question that sometimes brands aren't thinking about. They have a lot of other things to think about, like the ingredients going into it and the market, whether it's going to accept it and how to get on the shelves. Getting into the intricacies of materials can seem like a tall glass of water, but that's one thing to really be aware of when you are looking at sustainability, is the materials made out of and the end of life.

The difference between if somebody goes to almost anybody else, or a group like mine, is we're going to have a conversation around what's available and the impacts of the decision. Yeah we can make ... We make conventional packaging for several brands. We make top quality collectible films, folding cartons, labels, displays. The majority of our business is still conventional, but we make sure that we help those brands understand what happens to their product when it's done being used and that there are other options available like either being fully recyclable, or fully compostable is what we prefer. We work with a lot of leading brands that ... Brands that are leading the way towards sustainability and that are interested in understanding how they provide their lovely gluten free, organic product to the market.

At the same time be in line with their values when it comes to the packaging side of the equation. We help get them into packaging structures that are non GMO. We help all of our brands understand what's those materials are capable and getting into the solution that they need for that time.

Dan: That opens up a lot of different questions. Okay let's start with this. What worst case scenario does a package look like in terms of end of life? Just to give everyone a frame of reference.

Reyna: Well, there's a couple. One scenario is it goes into landfill. Another scenario ends up in a natural environment. Another scenario is it gets burned. Now I'm talking all about conventional.

Dan: Yeah, exactly.

Reyna: When I say conventional, these are actually multi layers of materials laminated together and it's almost impossible to separate those layers. You're basically restricted with where that material can go, because nobody wants that material right now on the mark ... No can make products out of those multi layered laminated materials. Like I said before landfill, the oceans or being burnt is the only options that they have and when you get into the realm of burning things, I mean that's a bit of a can of worms there, because there's a lot of toxins that are in packaging today that when burned can obviously be very dangerous. Most facilities hopefully are operating what most of these waste, energy facilities are hopefully operating to specs that they were designed. It's hard to say if they are, so that's one of the concerns.

Dan: If someone were to use that package, dispose of it, what would you expect to be the rate at which it would decompose? 1000 years, 500 years, five years, 10 years? I'm talking about conventional packaging one and then two, if they dump it in the ocean then what would that look like? Again trying to frame here's what most companies do and where we're trying to move with your brand.

Reyna: I think your question was, what will happen ... It looks like the lifecycle of a package that's conventional?

Dan: Exactly.

Reyna: How long it will end up in various end of life scenarios? Is that what your question was?

Dan: Yeah does it ever really degrade?

Reyna: That's a loaded question. The short answer is no, because it in our life times and in our lifetimes of several generations after this it will not degrade by then. Will it eventually degrade? Yes under certain conditions, but it's going to be thousands of years and it's really dependent on all the different materials. That's a very tough question to answer, but basically long story short, for your conventional materials you're not going to see any degradation and not in a safe way. Then if it gets into the ocean environment, it's reeking havoc on our marine life and we're seeing all sorts of issues and one of which ... I mean scientists predicting that plastics in the ocean will outweigh the fish.

I was just speaking with a group that's studying the flow of plastic waste in the ocean and they predict that it's over 50% of the plastics that are ending up in the ocean are of these multilayer laminates. One of the main reasons is the multilayer laminates have no value on that secondary market. Nobody wants to take the time to collect it and resell it. That's what we're seeing.

Dan: That's exactly what I was hoping for is for you to answer, so thank you for that. I remember back when I was young we had pole taps. We got rid of those, because those are dangerous and they didn't break down. Of course people created a lot of litter around them. I remember the discussions around some of the plastic things that held on the bottles, held a bunch of bottles together and how that was bad for the environment. To your point I've seen studies and documentaries et cetera that really highlight the issues around plastics in the ocean and how they are just reeking havoc with the marine biology et cetera.

Thank you for that. In terms of ... Let's go one step further. You talked about no one has value for it. When you recycle one of those products, what's recyclable? What's not recyclable?

Reyna: Yeah, so to add another dimension to just add some clarity. We focus on compostability for flexible films. I live and breath flexible films. In fact there's a different world between hard plastic and films and we can talk about that in detail in a little bit. In terms of recyclability there's only a couple of options. It's basically a combination of high density, or low density polyethylene. Those can be laminated or and you can do a couple things to the technology itself to add barrier, or add transparency. The end of life for that is it has to be collected right now at store front locations, where you have to drop it off back at your grocery stores. There's like these little collection bins.

You want to have it so it's clean and dry and then that material is bought up by other companies that are making decking, or park furniture. There's actually an end market for those clean polyethylene resins. You don't want to be recycling your flexible film plastic, even when it's recyclable. You don't want to be putting it into your recycle bin that's going to your single stream MERF. The reason you don't want to do that is, because the sorting technology at the MERF, which differ from location to location, municipality to municipality. One of the first stages of their sorting is to separate the hard, heavy things from the paper.

At that stage plastic bags can get stuck in the machinery, or like flat stand up pouches that have been flattened can end up in the paper stream. It has to do with the sorting technology right now that is basically the majority of these single stream MERFs. They don't have the capability to sort out flexible film, so in order ... If you're going to recyclable route for flexible films you want to write directions to the consumer and actually SPC has a really great thing called How to Recycle.

You can go to howtorecycle.com where they're making some brand recognizable, kind of like directions for consumers to know how to recycle things. We work with that group when we work with our partners, so that everybody is clear on what to do with that material.

Dan: Is there ... Let's switch gears and get into your wheelhouse. Now we'll talk about sustainable packaging. What does that mean? You say it's compostable, okay what does that mean to the end consumer and to the brand looking for that solution?

Reyna: Yeah, so a fully compostable packaging will provide a narrative and a really amazing green story to brands, because basically you're putting your food in a package that will biodegrade and disappear in an industrial composting facility. That's one of the key things about the packaging materials and the bio materials that we use. They're all designed to what's called ASTM6400. It's the standard that basically dictates whether something is compostable or not. It's really important that we have a standard like that to measure to. That will protect consumers and that will protect our material management system.

We designed that standard and it basically means that the products that we put together and going to completely disappear at a set amount of time under a certain condition, under certain temperatures, under certain humidity. They are non toxic and they don't have heavy metals. There's a pretty strict testing that we have to go through for every single package that we create. When we create a package we go through all this testing, so that the brand owner can write this package is compostable on their package. They also are going to write as to ASTM6400 and that's going to basically provide the language and the copy that is required by the FTC to properly inform the consumer of exactly how that material can be ...

How that material is designed and what end of life stream it can go into. That's basically a little about compostable packaging and how we work with it.

Dan: It helps a lot. A question, you said it has to be compost in a compostable facility. Does that mean that this product, the packaging should not be thrown in the waste fill, land fills?

Reyna: Yeah, no, no, it can go into the garbage and it will ... That will actually happen if there's no industrial composting available. That's one of the challenges that we face right now is infrastructure is being built out for more access to curbside composting. That is happening very quickly, because a lot of municipalities have waste initiatives for 2020 and building industrial composting and organics materials collection is one of the main ... It's like the top thing on their list to achieve those goals that they set for 2020. We are seeing the access to that grow, but it has a challenge right now that not everybody has curb side compost.

If people don't have curb side compost it will go in the land fill, but it won't cause any ... Obviously cause any problems. It's a bit of one of those we don't want to design to a broken system. We have to fix the material collection system at the same time as developing new materials and new solutions. Our goals is essentially to design packaging, so it's like an orange peel to orange and it will function as a package. Yet after it's use it will degrade in a safe way. Eventually we want to start adding new nutrients back into the soil, so that's the next phase.

Dan: I was going to ask you about that, but let me ask you this question first. You said zero waste initiatives. What pressures is being applied to the industry as a whole?

Reyna: The packaging industry?

Dan: The consumer package goods industry. In other words, granted our audience is going to be very focused on this and they're going to be very interested in this. My question really is around they're jumping on board first. They're the early adopters. They're the ones initiating this conversation. How will this impact other brands that people might find on the shelf? They're competitors.

Reyna: Well what we're seeing ... This is a major differentiator and it's giving these small brands a seat at the table. We actually have gotten some incredible feedback from brands that say ... I talk Starbucks because I said I'm going to be a compostable package. They're interested in getting me into several regions. Talked to Whole Foods, the compostable packaging aspect has peaked their interest. When can we get into that material. We are seeing that even from the retail buying side, there's a lot of interest, because everybody is feeling pressure. I like to say as this information gap is closing, more and more people are seeing our human impact on the environment and it's translating across all aspects of business, where shareholders are looking to their corporations that they're invested in, to make moves towards sustainability.

Then the leadership within the organization has to look to find solutions. We have individual brands that are looking to differentiate themselves and they're looking at market trends that they're seeing. We have these new ... A lot of these younger generations, the millennials and a lot of these groups we're seeing are pushing more towards being a conscious consumer, being aware. The way that I've been looking at these market trends is I really believe that just like we as a species and a civilization rather are becoming more aware of our food and what goes in it and we're seeing that trend towards organic. We will soon see a trend towards more sustainable packaging, because people start looking deeper into what their packaging is compromised of and what that means for the greater whole.

Dan: This is exactly why I wanted to bring you today to answer this specific question. I talk a lot about the importance of brands being able to make ... Provide a way to make consumers feel good about their product. For example organic and how organic is driving sales across every category, where traditional sales, mainstream products if you will are flat or declining. I've never seen any studies around this and I would absolutely love to figure out, or work with you to really dig into this and explore this more. Long story short, the conscious consumer that you're talking about is the consumer that's driving trends all across the entire CPG Eco System.

Again thank you for coming on today. This is the core message that I wanted to communicate to my audience. Let me ask you, I'm a brand, I've got a mission and I'm really empowered by what I'm trying to do in terms of providing the right nutrients, the right product et cetera. How do I work with an organization like yours?

Reyna: Yeah, well first of all just give us a call. You can connect with us at lpackaging.com and you can connect with us via through our website, or you can shoot me an email and I'm sure you can send out some of my contact information to your group, but just reach out. One of the things that we pride ourselves is basically being that source of education for the industry. What we found is that there's so many questions and not a lot of people knew what options were available. We work with a group called One Step Closer To and a national foods base. I highly suggest getting involved with that group as well. It's a group of these brands that really care about sustainability within their supply chains and from packaging as well as for their ingredients.

We joined the group at the beginning and they basically have stepped in becoming the technical partner on the sustainable packaging side. We provide basically almost like a transparent open source forum, where we provide all this information to brands, so that they understand what options are available and what are the opportunities and what are the challenge that we're facing, so that collectively as a group we can become a more ... We can basically develop a stronger lever of informed consumers which are the brands at this point, so we can turn towards the packaging industry and demand certain changes.

We do pride ourselves on being that source of information and I love to help brands understand what's available and I can talk to the brand owners themselves. I can talk to their packaging tech team. I'd be happy to walk people through the auctions and then what we would do, is we would take a look at what their package ... What they're going to be packaging? What type of food product is it? Is it dry goods? Is it wet? Is it acidic? Is it oily? We have to understand the actual traits of the product itself. Then we look at what options are available in the sustainable packaging front to protect that package throughout it's supply chain and get to the consumer.

At the same time 100% compostable. We're here to guide people through the process, because there' a lot ... Like everybody has a lot more questions than answers and we like to share all of our learning with all the brands that we work with.

Dan: Absolutely love that. I think we have very similar missions, in the sense that we're both trying to make a dramatic change in the world. I absolutely want to champion what you're doing and I'm going to learn more about One Step Closer To. By the way I will include a link to your website in the show notes and on my website where the page to resist. In addition to that like I said, I'm going to look at One Step Closer To and I certainly want to learn more about them. Can you tell us, another project that we discussed when I met you in Atlanta when I was speaking at an event. Actually we were both speaking at the event, is Rain Child Design.

Do you have a moment to talk a little bit about that and share what your mission is there?

Reyna: Sure, absolutely. Rain Child Design is essentially the company that I established to start my journey in sustainable packaging development, as well as finding other ways to gain efficiencies through different part of the business and move towards sustainability. Packaging is just one of the things that we can do to make our companies more sustainable. There's other options when you take a look at the business holistically to move us closer to the sustainability mark. When I joined Elk I was essentially joining from my range how to design entity for the initial parts of the RND. We work together so well, that eventually I was brought on as the director of strategy and I head up the R&D within the Elk House.

I still keep my range how to design intact, so it can be a foundational place where people can understand my philosophies and work with another projects that are aligned with that philosophy. I do a lot of work with life cycle assessment, supply chain transparency, consumer education. That's kind of the world, the range how design lives in. It's a nice platform.

Dan: I think it looks fantastic and again this is why I brought you on, because I was so thoroughly impressed. Not only with what you're doing, but your passion for the industry and your sincere desire to make a sustainable difference in the CBG world. Let me ask you a couple of questions. You were talking about products packaging that can break down and eventually provide nutrients to the ground. I've heard some rumblings about that. Where is that in development? How soon might we see that on the store shelves?

Reyna: That is I would say it's ... My best estimate would probably say that it's three to five years out. The reason being is we need more brands to be engaged the compostable packaging and put ... Just more demand in the market for compostable packaging, so that the energy of the market will push forward a lot of these innovations. I've seen these little sparks happening, but as soon as more brands get engaged, we're going to see those sparks turn into fires and we're going to see things grow at a faster rate. In terms of the nutrient side, like I said it's probably three to five years out.

Some of the challenges that we're working on today is increasing our capability for moisture barriers. Designing structures that will completely degrade in the ocean, because ocean degradation is completely different than soil degradation, or something that will happen in a composting facility, which is very interesting. I didn't know that until we started doing the research, but has different micro biomes, different conditions. We're now looking at what the bio materials that are coming on the scene today that do perform well in ocean degradation and so on and so forth.

The more that we are learning, the more that we can push forward the right technologies and that's why I'm very ... I'm an advocate of educating these brands that even are remotely interested. Understanding their needs and then I can turn to my technical partners, my suppliers and say, "This is what we're hearing. We know brands want this. They are concerned with ocean degradation. They are concerned with toxicity. Let's make sure that we are pushing forward the technologies and extruding the right materials.

It's been interesting. It's like I'm an interesting position where I can help short circuit some of the communication and stimulate innovation the right direction, but we do need more and more brands to sit at the table and have this conversation, so that we can show the packaging industry, which is one of the most old school, dinosaur I've ever been a part of. It's so bad,

Dan: I can hear you smiling on the other end. That's exactly why we're talking about this. I keep talking about the fact that the natural organic industry is the RND of the CPG industry. The point being is that, here's where the innovation takes place. Innovation isn't just slapping a different label on it, or a different flavor, or a different ingredient, saying here's something brand new. It's the same stuff with a different look, flavor, label, whatever. Whereas in the natural organic space we're seeing true innovation. Brands that are delivering at a high value, giving their consumers what they really want.

Again thank you for that and again love your mission, love your passion. As a brand, how would a brand communicate that effectively? Do you have a generic case study that a brand has used to communicate that and differentiate themselves on the shelf?

Reyna: Yeah, one group that we love to highlight is Alter Ego, because they have been one of the leaders in developing some material, specifically the stand up pouch. They have a product that's on the shelf today and it has a little green strip on the bottom that says gone for good. That's is ... It plays multiple roles. One it says a message to the consumer that this packaging is different and they are working on licensing that same gone for good to other brands as it's relevant to their branding. It can be a nice way for consumers to know, but also it can be a really great tool for the people that are managing the material on the back end, when they see stand up pouches of all these different shapes and sizes. It's really nice to have some sort of either as a green strip, or some sort of indicator that says this is a compostable package.

Because then they won't pull it out of the waste stream, or pull it out of, excuse me, the organics material stream.

Dan: No I love that. In fact actually I'm looking at a picture on your website of the packaging. Of course you showed me one when we were together in person at the event. What other questions do you think ... What other questions have I not answered that you wanted to address?

Reyna: Well that's a great question. One thing I'd like to continue pushing forward this idea of sharing the cost of innovation across the value chain. What I mean by that is right now unfortunately it's the brands themselves that have to bear the cost of going to compostable packaging. Compostable packaging right now is three times more expensive than conventional, because we are essentially using these small batch specialty bio polymers. They're small batch in comparison to the byproduct of oil and gas industry. These polymers that have been on the market for about 50 years or so, with really wide supply chains.

We're going toe to toe with those types of resins. Inherently the materials are more expensive, which that cost is being put on the shoulders of the brands. If brands are trying to put compostable ... Like a product that's currently on the market into compostable packaging. They often run into the issue where their margins are being squeeze out just because of the added cost. One solution to that is to introduce new products in compostable packaging, so you can design your margins around that, but the piece of this conversation I'd like to focus on is, why is it just the brands that are bearing the weight of compostable packaging?

I think that the retailers and the distributors should be looking at maybe providing perks, or taking a portion of their margin out, so that every ... When you're looking at the price that the consumers are seeing, your price isn't getting changed when compostable package is put on the shelf, but everybody is kind of putting in a couple of cents to get us there. This is a global problem. We're all in this together. This shouldn't be a conversation around just the consumers and the brands. It needs to be a conversation within the entire supply chain.

Another thing I'd like to talk about is, this major issue we have knowledge gap in the marketplace and what that does to our prices. Right now, even though compostable packaging looks more expensive, when you put compostable packaging side by side with a conventional package and you look at the real cost associated to those and with your conventional materials, what happens to the environment? What's happening to human health? What's going on due to that material?

You're going to see the costs are much higher for the conventional, but the market isn't reflecting that price. Why is that? Well it's because a long time ago we pulled out the cost of externalities out of our market evaluation. When we were in ... When you're in college and you're studying macro, micro economics you learn about environmental externalities but your teacher will say, "There's such a thing as environmental externalities, but it's too complex to calculate, so let's not worry about it. You did that in your school. The schools across the nation did that. Schools cross the planet did that and effectively at that point, we as a collective said the environment has no value in our market.

Once that happened you're running into a situation where our market dynamics do not put energy in the right place that is aligned with what the great good and the great whole. That's something ... It's an important idea. I know it can be a bit abstract. I'd be happy to answer to more questions about it, but it is something to understand we are dealing with a situation where our economic system is fundamentally flawed and we're not getting innovation in the right direction at the speed it needs to happen for the survival of our species. It's important for us to continue to get educated. Continue to close those knowledge gaps.

We here at Elk Packaging are absolutely here to help understand materials and same old packaging and if you have any other questions regarding sustainability within the Nash food space, just feel free to reach out. We have a big network of people who working with and we'd be happy to forward you along.

Dan: I really appreciate that. I think you explained it so very well. To your point, I talk about this a lot and we talked about it when I was in Atlanta at that event, where if you are what you eat, then putting products in your body that have the best nutrition in them are actually more sustainable and I made the argument ... I continue to make the argument that consumers that are focused on their health. These core consumers I talked about that ripple in the pond if you will are the same consumers you're talking about. The point being that they want quality. They want to feel good about what they buy and it's those products that are ... Like I said, growing sales across every category and across every channel.

Where I'm going with this is that the consumers that are buying these products are the ones that have the greatest voice. I would absolutely love to help you champion that message and invite you back on at other points to talk more about this, because I think it's such an important and such a relevant issue. A lot of brands that I've worked with in the incubator stage et cetera, they can't really afford this. They say that, but the reality is that they can't afford not to do this. The whole idea is and I've used the example where, if I eat some of the really high quality main stream bread, I might be sustained for three or four hours.

But if I eat something that's organic, natural et cetera, that will sustain me even longer. For 30 or 40 cent price difference, it's more expensive at the shelf, but it's cheaper in the long run, because it helps me sustain myself longer. It better meets the needs for my body et cetera. I know that its a different argument, but they're very parallel. Thank you again for making that.

Reyna: Yeah and I'll just add to it. It's so interesting, because it feels like a different argument, but it's actually one in the same.

Dan: It is.

Reyna: Because we are an extension of earth. We cannot survive without earth. It's almost like ... It's been really interesting ... I'm just a result of the culture. I can see the trajectory and we're getting even more and more disconnected from the earth end, what's important and it's almost like we're the arm cutting itself off the body and being like, "We're good." It's like with the saw like, "We're fine. Don't worry, we're going to be totally fine." It's not going to go well. Like you said it's this realization that short term strategies for short term gain actually are more costly and not taking care of us holistically and in the long term.

It's just like eating cheaper food it going to result larger medical bills down the road. Cheaper packaging is going to end up in a world that is going to unfold in the next ... From now to the next 30 years and more, but it's going to be something that we've never seen and it's going to be wild so buckle up. That's all I have to say.

Dan: Well, I agree with you and I would say anyone listening to this podcast. This whole podcast is about paying it forward. It's about making that difference. It's about helping to educate the brands and the manufacturers and the retailers out there about these different solutions that are really going to make a positive impact, because bottom line is, if a brand could tout, or celebrate that they have something unique in the market that's going to help them stand out. If something that's so unique and so revolutionary, that's going to make an even greater impact.

We've all seen the buy one, we'll give someone in a foreign country, in a poor country schooling, or vitamins, or something like that. Those are all phenomenal, but what about us? What about in our backyard? We need to be thinking more broad scale, more altruistic. Thank you for coming on. What are the questions, or what other comments would you like to make?

Reyna: Other comments?

Dan: Anything else.

Reyna: Yeah, like what do I got. We did ... We covered a lot of ground today.

Dan: We did.

Reyna: I do really appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. I'm excited to learn more about the work that you're doing with the brands and how we can work together to help these small to mid size brands that are really pushing the needle forward in terms of ingredients and sustainability within their supply chains. How can these guys be the winners, because that's what we need in society.

Dan: Well I appreciate that and I'll look forward to that and just generically put ... Putting it short in sync, what I do is I help these disruptive brands get an equal seat at the table with the big brands and every retailer across every channel. The reason that's is important, because they need an equal voice. Again if they're the ones that are driving the sales across every category, while every other main, big brand if you will, their sale are down or declining. Retailers to your point need to start paying attention to this. They need to stop being penalized.

The second thing is, that a consumer that goes in and buys something like a compostable packaging, is also going to buy a lot of the other healthy products within that retailer store. That means that that retailer ... I'm sorry that consumer, that shopper is far more valuable to that shopper, to that retailer at the end of the day. That's what gives that retailer competitive advantage. That's what keeps their lights on and more importantly, that's what drives sustainable sales. That's what helps keep the big retailers from encroaching if you will on their space and that's how you build true shopper loyalty, which at the end of the day is the magic bullet.

Reyna: Absolutely and just to add to that and I'll go back a little bit. What you're talking about here, is there's an opportunity as well for the retailers to provide incentives for brands that are going into more sustainable options for packaging, so they can get more of those products on the shelves and continue to differentiate themselves and get more of those high value customers in their door. I really do think there's an opportunity to split the ... Share the cost of this sustainable packaging and innovation so it's not just on the shoulders of the brands and actually had a chance to sit on a panel with a representative from Whole Foods and a representative from and have this conversations.

Everybody's heads was nodding and the crowd was going wild. It's a conversation that we will continue to push forward and we'll continue to have as a collective, because I do feel like it's something that we all need to address and we need to become informed on. That's what I love to do.

Dan: Absolutely and again thank you for your passion. Thank you for your time. Thank you for coming on today.

Reyna: Yeah.

Dan: I look forward to several conversations in the future and again I'm 100% behind this, because it's about raising the tide and floating more ships. It's about making a sustainable difference. It's about giving forward and by inviting people like you on the show to help educate and help inspire people, that's what this is about. Again thank you, thank you, thank you.

Reyna: Yeah.

Dan: I appreciate it.

Reyna: Thank you for having me.

Dan: Thank you again for joining me today. I'll include a link to Elk Packaging and Rain Shell Design on my website and in the show notes. Today's freebie is my merchandising check list to grow sales and shopper loyalty. That will also be on the website and in the show notes, or if you want it instantly you can text “merchandisechecklist” to 44222. To download the show notes go to brandsecretsandstrategies.com/session20. I'll look forward to seeing you in the next show.

Here is the link to Elk Packaging. Here is the link to Rain Child Design.

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I appreciate all the positive feedback. Keep your suggestions coming.

Until next time, this is Dan Lohman with Brand Secrets and Strategies where the focus is on empowering brands and raising the bar.